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Seven Dead After Plane Crashes Into Tennessee Lake

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Seven people are presumed dead after a small plane crashed into a Tennessee morning, including an actor who played Tarzan and his wife who founded a Christian weight loss program,, authorities said Saturday night. (www.upi.com) Ещё...

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bbabis
bbabis 5
Very sad and tragic. RIP to those onboard and comfort for those left to mourn.
Quirkyfrog
Robert Cowling 2
I heard someone saying that 'it would be ironic if that quack weight loss predator was on an overloaded plane'. I thought that comment was off color. But her idea was to make people 'love Jesus more than food'. If only it were that easy...

Yeah, a really sad day for the families, friends, and business associates of the passengers.

I can't imagine being in that plane. OMG... I've been in planes that have been involved in 'incidents' and can only imagine the moments during/before a crash.
kevinkeswick
Kevin Keswick 4
It could well be that it was overloaded. Every seat was filled and I can imagine the cargo load was heavy as they were headed to Palm Beach to take part in the large MAGA flotilla that reportedly they were one of the sponsors of so imagine all the changes of wardrobe in all those suitcases.

And then you have the sole pilot (TV "Tarzan") who obtained his commercial pilot license a month *after* they bought the plane in 2020! It sounds like a perfect prescription for disaster. Thank god the plane didn't kill any innocents on the ground. According to flight tracking it was only 90 seconds from takeoff until it plummeted into the lake! Whatever happened happened QUICK!

I just don't understand why anyone who could afford a private jet wouldn't have it piloted by qualified pilots (PLURAL) I know the Cessna 501c is certified for single pilot but why would anyone who can afford to buy that jet want to fly on a jet under those circumstances? Far better to fly commercial! I'm sure there are lots of commercial options between Nashville and Palm Beach
royalbfh
royalbfh 4
I fly a Citation Ultra Single pilot. I have complete control as to whether i want to hire a co pilot. I also have complete control in deciding to go or not go if i am not comfortable with weather. These airplanes are very capable and Cessna did a phenomenal job in the cockpit to ease pilot workload. its always sad for the loss of life. may or may not have had anything to do with him being single pilot.
RetiredCaptain
Jasper Buck 1
Well said. We'll simply have to wait for the NTSB (and FAA) to opine on the accident.

Best
vector4traffic
vector4traffic 4
Looking at the flight data he was able to gain altitude just after exceeding max speed (while heavy, no less) and there's speculation of in-flight breakup which would also explain the lack of comms.
RetiredCaptain
Jasper Buck 6
"Every seat was filled..."

Don't think so. According to the FAA's Cessna Type Certificate Data Sheet (No. A27CE) the CE-501 is authorized for 9 seats. Even if the aircraft was configured in a typical 8 seat config. there would have still been one empty seat. Based on media reports there were 7 on board.

As to your diatribe about single pilot operations in turbine powered aircraft I think you will find that a preponderance of pilots who fly single pilot turbine (jet and prop) operations every day would disagree with your dismal assessment.

Best

Capt. J Buck
FAA Inspector (Ret.)
bcanderson
Brian Anderson 4
I don't have a C-501 AFM handy but knowing the approximate capabilities of that model fueled for a non-stop from Smyrna to Palm Beach with seven aboard it would have been at least at, and maybe even a couple hundred pounds over, max gross weight.

Add the weight of any luggage, and Kevin's theory isn't looking all that unreasonable.

If someone has access to an AFM, please set me straight if I'm mistaken.
RetiredCaptain
Jasper Buck 0
"...please set me straight if I'm mistaken."

At this point I think you may be mistaken. See my post with weights and capabilities. best

P.s. I do have a CE-501 and 550 AFM here in my office. (And a C-9/MD-80, B-757/767 too. Plus others)
royhunte92
Roy Hunte 1
By your title, I don't think anyone can argue with your comment!
RetiredCaptain
Jasper Buck 0
Thank you. I am familiar with and have some hours in the left seat of a CE-500 (and 501 and 550. Wouldn't be surprised if this accident didn't have some similarities to the Thurman Munson Citation accident in 1979.

The NTSB investigation into that crash stated that the probable cause was "...the pilot's failure to recognize the need for, and to take action to maintain, sufficient airspeed to prevent a stall into the ground during an attempted landing. The pilot also failed to recognize the need for timely and sufficient power application to prevent the stall during an approach conducted inadvertently without flaps extended. Contributing to the pilot's inability to recognize the problem and to take proper action was his failure to use the appropriate checklist and his nonstandard pattern procedures which resulted in an abnormal approach profile." Munson was not wearing the available shoulder harness restraint, only a lap belt, which contributed to the severity of his injuries.

Hard to say what the Board will find with the Lara accident.


Best

Capt J Buck

ATP DC-9 B757 B767
Flight Instructor
Ground Instructor
Aircraft Dispatcher
A&P Mechanic
Air Traffic Controller
FAA Aviation Safety Inspector (Ops & Aws) ((Ret.)
FAA certified accident investigator (Ret.)
ICAO Panel Member (Ret.)
Aviation Safety Consultant
bbabis
bbabis 2
More likely is similar to the CJ-4 crash at BKL a few years ago.
Quirkyfrog
Robert Cowling 0
Sorry, cap'n. It would be EASY to overload a plane with a lower number of passengers. Looking at the weather could add another big negative to their plans to spread the horse shit among the gullible in FloriDUH. (A friend of mine that grew up there calls it 'Floridumb')

My flight instructor, referenced elsewhere this thread, got into the idea of flying alone, a single cockpit. He was dead set against it for anything with two engines. He said he wasn't a fan of it in small planes either, but they weren't as potentially damaging if they crashed.

I took a flight in Puerto Rico where the pilot weighed everything and everyone before we boarded. Nothing like being extra careful. Give that the estimates they use for commercial planes are from the 60's(?), and how easy it is to overload a small plane, weighing everything that goes into it seems to make enormous sense to me.
royalbfh
royalbfh 1
so the opinion of one flight instructor is what we are going by? We do not have any real information yet. First off, unless he bought the airplane, read the AFM, got it started and and took off there is a pretty good chance that the PIC had a type rating. your instructor is quick to say that he needed a "more qualified" pilot in the right seat? i have seen, and heard PLENTY of pilots in a 172 that should probably land, taxi to tie down area(given the airplane still has its gear attached) and just hang it up, flying may not be for them. This is a tough accident because given the age of the airplane it will not have any FDR devices unless it has had avionics upgrades and NTSB can pull date from them. I fly a Citation Single Pilot 200-300 hours a year. My bigger issue or question is how experienced was the pilot? Did he make a poor choice by departing in adverse weather rather than delay or cancel completely? And not sure where you live, but i live in Florida, neither on of your nicknmames really do anything other than you might be unhappy that you are not a resident....
Quirkyfrog
Robert Cowling 1
Personally, I wouldn't fly without a copilot. I see the purpose of two brains in the cockpit. Although finding one I could deal with while flying might be an issue. There is also no guarantee that two brains are better than one. Look up the story of the two pilots flying a plane to its altitude limit, and it, no surprise, crashes. No passengers were harmed in that display of stupidity.

But if Tarzan bought the plane, and was the only pilot, a case can be made that, like the saying 'only a fool is his own attorney'.

But, yes, the instructor talked at length about 'getthereitis'. And being pressured to fly in conditions you (we) might feel uneasy/unsafe. He had to tell his wife to take the kids on a one-way because the weather turned bad, and she was trying to force him to fly them home. It took two days for him to be able to fly back, and once, they all took a flight home, and someone had to ferry the plane back. I'm also a scuba diver, and have a standing rule that if either of us decide to not dive, for any reason, we don't dive. It's hard to bail on a dive, especially when traveling, but it was a rule enforced by a bad experience.

But anyway, we will likely know in a few years what caused, or contributed to this crash.

A sad day...

And Floridumb? DeSantos has so badly managed the pandemic, they are STILL in the red zone for infections, and he's being talked about as a 2024 presidential candidate. He wants to ban almost every measure that could keep people safe. And Floridumb leads the nation, last I heard, in car/bicycle fatalities. Floridumb should be sold to Mexico, but I doubt even they would want it. That, and a total disregard for climate change, and preserving natural resources. Yikes...
royalbfh
royalbfh 1
Sir, I am not sure what state you live in, and I'm sure that you are wearing a mask while you are typing away, and this is not the forum for political debate, but you are absolutely incorrect. yes there are cases, the point of Florida is that he left the decisions to the counties for the most part. And if Gillum had been elected would you still have such disdain for the fantastic state that is Florida or just because of the current governor?

Now, your statement that "personally, I wouldn't fly without a co pilot": do you recall that thing called a "solo flight"? I wonder if Charles Lindbergh had that thought as he was cruising across the Atlantic ocean. If you cant fly alone then thank GOD you take someone with you! you obviously do not haver the confidence that is required to be a pilot. so good for you for wise decision making.

Your incessant name calling is baffling. What if the pilot was, lets say, John Travolta, would you consistently refer to him as Zuko? Do you resent Morgan Freeman, Tom Cruise, Harrison Ford, Michael Dorn in the same way? I see some sort of pattern that you think if you buy your own airplane you shouldn't fly it.

lets stick to the story here. An airplane took off, crashed and killed all aboard. Very tragic. It has nothing to do with their intended destination, the reason of the trip or the past profession of the pilot. Your insults toward the pilot and the state of Florida really have no purpose if you actually looking for the answer to this accident. Hopefully, they can find the complete airplane and really determine what happened so that we all can learn from.
RetiredCaptain
Jasper Buck 1
"...There is also no guarantee that two brains are better than one. "

I agree. I was the lead FAA inspector on the Detroit Northwest 255 MD-80 accident. Two experienced pilots flying a large jet and still managed to takeoff with the flaps up, resulting in the airplane hitting lights in the rental car parking lot and crashing on the freeway leading into the airport. One survivor.

There are plenty of other examples where two pilots were not a panacea for using using common sense. The Eastern L-1011 accident in the Florida Everglades is another one. 4 sets of eyes in the cockpit and they managed to crash into the swamp because no one was paying attention to the altimeter or VSI. Ouch.

Best
RetiredCaptain
Jasper Buck 0
I'm sure the NTSB will take a hard look at all the points you made. Aircraft age, airworthiness, and equipment (e.g. CVR/FDR), pilot KSAs, WX, ATC interaction, etc.

I get the sense that there a lot of folks that participate in this discussion group that have absolutely no aeronautical KSAs but just like to hear themselves talk. That's why I like to bombard them with facts <g>. E.g. in the discussion about weight I gave the ZFW weight, MTOW, (for the CE500/501)and some other numbers along with some FAA guidance material references pertain to weight and balance. I doubt if the majority of participants know what ZFW is or how to use it. Ditto MTOW, or any of the other max weights in the TCDS/AFM.

I too am in Florida. And glad I am.

Best

Capt J Buck

ATP DC-9 B757 B767
Flight Instructor
Ground Instructor
Aircraft Dispatcher
A&P Mechanic
Air Traffic Controller
FAA Aviation Safety Inspector (Ops & Aws) ((Ret.)
FAA certified accident investigator (Ret.)
ICAO Panel Member
Aviation Safety Consultant
RetiredCaptain
Jasper Buck 1
Okay, knowing what we know about the accident thus far what would your estimate of the aircraft's weigh at the time of the accident?

We know that a typical CE501 has an empty weight of 6630 Lbs., a Zero fuel weight of 9400 Lbs., A MTOW of 11,850, Max Fuel Weight 3780 Lbs. We also know that it's 658 NM from KBNA to KPBI and that the typical range for a CE501 with full fuel is approximately 1100 NM. We don't yet know how much fuel was on the aircraft at the time of the accident but it may have been less than full considering the distance being flown. We also know that the FAA's Aircraft Weight and Balance Handbook (FAA-H-8083-1B) and Weight and Balance Advisory Circular AC-AC 120-27F both discuss using an average weight (summer) of 180 Lbs. for each passenger. Since there were 7 on board that would add 1260 Lbs. to the equation.

Given all that what would your guess be as to how many pounds overweight the aircraft may have been at departure?

Best
royalbfh
royalbfh 1
just a little over two hours enroute, roughly 2300-2400 lbs, given that he would want land with an hour (900 lbs) he could leave MQY with 3300lbs. that's 400+lbs less than full fuel. that's 2 average PAX, or lot of luggage. i am using my knowledge from years ago when i flew a 501, so dont me to exact numbers but, but using your numbers and fuel required w reserves, it would appear he was not overgross. all of that being said, we are literally guessing as we do not know his fuel load, or luggage weight.
RetiredCaptain
Jasper Buck 1
royalbfh
royalbfh 1
no one on board had a type rating, so it looks like no one was qualified to fly the airplane.. sad sad event.
RetiredCaptain
Jasper Buck 1
Wrong! The pilot, Mr. Lara has a C/CE-500 type rating on his certificate. Check the FAA's Airman Registry data base if you think otherwise.

https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/airmeninquiry/Main.aspx

His name is William Joseph Lara

Best

J Buck
FAA Inspector (Ret.)
Quirkyfrog
Robert Cowling 2
Remember JFK Jr?

He was a 'weak' IFR pilot. Apparently too weak. He got lost in the weather. That happened just before I took ground school, and the instructor covered it pretty extensively. JJ was over his head. It was his first flight without an instructor in the right seat. He probably thought 'I can do this', and talked his wife's friend out of taking a commercial flight as I remember.

That whole thing was why he said he taught a modified IFR syllabus. People get lost in the clouds, easy as heck to do. Clouds also can fill in behind you, and then poof, you are in them. 'You have to know what to do, and not to panic'. He was a great instructor, I thought.

So, did 'Tarzan' (I hadn't heard he was the pilot) take some shortcuts to a hole in the lake? Very possibly. Being overloaded is an easy thing to not be aware of. Everything has to be accounted for. Everything. Did the wife pack 10 suitcases? (Probably?) The FBO isn't going to stop you from overloading your plane. It's not their job...

Some of the instructors stories: Turns out a friend was going on vacation with the fam. They were heading back, and the weather wasn't looking good. His wife was apparently screeching about getting the kids back for school, and not missing a social engagement she had. He prepped their twin, and they piled in. The weather was 0/0, but he elected to take off in it. He said the plane didn't make it off airport property. All were killed. He said, the ironic thing was that a half hour later, the whole system moved on and it was unlimited, perfect flying weather. He died for nothing.

Inexperienced pilots do stupid tragic things: He told another story of a football player that was doing touch and goes in his new plane. His buddy called him and wanted to hook up for some fun. He invited his buddy to come ride with him. They met at the airport, and the pilot did a few more, and then on what was the last one, stowed the flaps on climb out, probably distracted with conversation. Oops...
RetiredCaptain
Jasper Buck 2
"Remember JFK Jr?'

Yes, very well. Here's the link to the Kennedy accident report. A low time pilot (301 hours), Private Pilot, no instrument rating, operating at night over water in VFR conditions with no flight plan. The NTSB said he became spatially disoriented due to the lack of a defined horizon, did not use the instruments in the cockpit to fly straight and level and spiraled into the water. A good friend of mine at the FAA was on the team that wrote the report. The report is at:

https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/?NTSBNumber=NYC99MA178.

A flight instructor offered to go with Kennedy and his wife and sister-in-law but he declined to accept that offer.

The FAA guidance (FAA Order 8083 Airplane Flying Handbook) with respect to flying at night is well known and has been around a long time. Kennedy chose, apparently, not to follow longstanding advice and went on the flight anyway. In a well equipped Piper complete with GPS, an autopilot, etc. Problem he didn't know how to use the tools he had available and crashed.

Best

Quirkyfrog
Robert Cowling 1
Losing the horizon would be extremely easy flying at night, especially in 'perfect weather'.

Thinking back to the ground school, the instructor discussed the dangers of flying at night over water. He has flown quite a few times over water at night, and he said that his first time, flying alone, he felt the pull towards panic because the water was really quite still, no wind, and it was a clear, cold night. You can't see where the horizon changes. Everything is reflected and it can look like you are in a dark box., and lose any sense of your altitude. I saw that once while flying commercial over the Great Lakes. Just looking out the window, the whole scene looked so strange. It was a totally dark night, no moon, and the stars were just awesome, but it looked like flying over a mirror. Stars everywhere. I can see why a pilot could end up being 'lost'.

John John pushed things beyond his experiential learning. He shouldn't have been flying that route, and possibly even with a copilot. It was really something reading about how he over estimated his ability and ended up taking two more lives with his. So tragic... He had no reason to be doing that flight except for arrogance, ignorance, ego, showing off...

A flight instructor could have saved their lives, but he apparently thought he could do it. Sad...
RetiredCaptain
Jasper Buck 1
"John John pushed things beyond his experiential learning. He shouldn't have been flying that route"

Can't disagree. He should have taken the CFI up on his offer.
aliamus
Steve Aliamus 1
There is a local news posting about recovery efforts, including the use of remote controlled submarines:
https://www.wkrn.com/news/crews-wrap-recovery-efforts-in-deadly-plane-crash-on-percy-priest-lake/
bkoskie
Billy Koskie 1
I'm not a pilot. But I think the watch phrase would be - 'If I THINk I can make it, I'd better NOT go.' One should know their capabilities, experience and aircraft are suited to the conditions.
RetiredCaptain
Jasper Buck 2
"One should know their capabilities, experience and aircraft are suited to the conditions."

Can't disagree with that. We know that the pilot was qualified in terms of certificates and ratings held, and same for his airman medical certificate. What we don't yet know, and may never know, was his decision making process, the airworthiness status of the aircraft, etc. The NTSB will, eventually issue a report that will attempt to answer at least some of the questions.

Best
yr2012
matt jensen 1
I had heard that the pilot tried to do a Sully. Nover hearc that again, but after the accident - the local police on the lake said the debris field cene was 1/2 mile long on the water. This video sorta shows what that would look like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4EzGenMjSI
royalbfh
royalbfh 1
I just read on AIN that "no one on board was qualified to fly the airplane". So, now we can start to see the issue. Was not the airplane, nor the single pilot part. He made some pretty poor decisions.
RetiredCaptain
Jasper Buck 1
The pilot (William Joseph Lara) was qualified to operate the airplane. He has a Commercial Pilot certificate, an Instrument/Multi-Engine rating and a CE-500 type rating. his medical appears to have expired last June BUT about the time his medical expired the FAA published a policy paper in the Federal Register that permitted Class III medical certificate holders to continue to fly with their expired medicals because of the COVID-19 pandemic. It will be interesting to see if that is a factor in the Board's report.

Best
bcanderson
Brian Anderson 1
No medical. Here is a link to the article: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2021-06-01/ntsb-begins-probe-fatal-citation-accident?utm_medium=email&utm_source=rasa_io&PostID=31323443&MessageRunDetailID=5403872463
tnjimbob
Jim Highfill 1
Single pilot flying in IMC conditions. ATC requested two right hand turns immediately after take off, and from the ATC audio, it sounds like the pilot was behind the airplane in the clouds and precip.

VAS Aviation YT link with ATC Audio -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbFHQDzEOd8&t=0s
aliamus
Steve Aliamus 1
Another local update on recovery efforts:
https://www.mainstreet-nashville.com/news/plane-crash-investigation-continues/article_b5284bfc-c3d8-11eb-95fb-dff8fb77b444.html
kevinkeswick
Kevin Keswick 1
A very good explanation of what likely happened by a professional pilot (Boeing 777)

Copy and paste this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjJYD_0oDxk

He agrees with me that a second pilot in the right hand seat (hopefully more qualified) would have made all the difference. Also he states the obvious. Just switching on the autopilot would have made all the difference.
RetiredCaptain
Jasper Buck 1
"...a second pilot in the right hand seat (hopefully more qualified) would have made all the difference. Also he states the obvious. Just switching on the autopilot would have made all the difference."

Pure speculation. Theoretical conjecture without firm evidence as to why this accident happened.

Are you even a pilot?

Best
kevinkeswick
Kevin Keswick 1
Tail number N66BK - blocked for tracking on FA but you can see the final flight path at below link (copy and paste it)

https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a3910e,a8b203&lat=36.003&lon=-86.526&zoom=12.3&showTrace=2021-05-29
johncotton
John Cotton 1
There's a number of YouTube recordings with audio. In this one, at the 0:49 mark you can hear an alarm in the background as he confirms his assigned heading: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxGkGG304R4
raleedy
ALLAN LEEDY 5
Knowledgable experts have identified the background sound source as engine igniters, used in bad weather as a precaution, rather than a warning horn.
bbabis
bbabis 2
It doesn’t matter. Clearly there is stress building in the pilot’s voice. He has his hands full, lost the plane once already, and is way behind the aircraft. Add in any malfunction and disaster is the only outcome.
bcanderson
Brian Anderson 1
That does not sound like igniters to me. That sounds like an overspeed warning.
royalbfh
royalbfh 1
its the ignition, its jut bleeds through. Overspeed is a higher pitch and tone. we had the same exact noise in our old 550.

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