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Out of Control - Why Can Pilots Still Shut Off Transponders?

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Interesting discussion regarding the off switch on transponders. (www.nytimes.com) Ещё...

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Moviela
Ric Wernicke 8
Pilots are not potted plants along for the ride, nor are they sysops as Airbus would have us believe. Their only duty is to fly the airplane.

Let the engineers design the airplane using best practices (which include circuit breakers to protect the wiring) and let the politicians figure out how to keep criminals out of the airport.
daerico
Eric Wilkins 2
The politicians are the absolute worst people to make responsible for keeping us safe
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
And, I wish they would quit trying to do it!
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Dear friend Ric Wernicke how right you are while writing about letting engineers do what they are best suited for, implying that let pilots do what they do best.
The topic is purely engineering based, nothing to do with the flying. Assume for a moment, IF it is decided at the highest level that locational transponders or its print should remain visible at all times, not like what seems to have happened in MH 370, what will happen ?
Engineers will be obliged to devise/design a new system. Period.
Pilots ? Will they matter ? No !
From crude VFR flying to sophisticated IFR flying ! Who decided ? And who created the system ? What was the role of pilots ? During every transition ? Only ergonomics !
Long ago mechanical control was changed to electrical and then to electronic which now has been modified into computer controlled ' fly-by-wire' system !
Many pilots still resent it. Result ? Who cares.
Who decides changes or modifications ? ICAO and national level agencies like FAA decide.
Not pilots' guilds/federations. Their best card is limited to ergonomics and that is always taken care of by the engineers. That's the part of their job.
Pilots fly the plane the way engineers tell them to fly .
Not vice-a-versa.
Check how test flights are conducted/regulated and how their data are collected , be it a commercial aircraft or an air force fighter plane !
mduell
Mark Duell 7
Because electrical fires can happen, and there will always be a circuit breaker for the transponder anyway.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Unlike that ELT that burned up on the Ethopian plane, all electronics should be in an area that has fire suppression.
sparkie624
sparkie624 5
Because when they fail, you need to turn them off.. Also they should not be on at the gate because they at the frequency they operate at they are bad for people being around them... In the case of a fire, they need to be disabled as with every other piece of electronics.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 5
Equipment can also fail and transmit erroneous altitude data. I'd rather a controller be troubled by asking my altitude due to no indication than trusting they'll remember what they're seeing is wrong.
preacher1
preacher1 2
To Derek Thomas: your profile picture shows you wrapped in a headset yet you show no rating on your profile. I'm kinda thinkin' you have never flown big iron or even IFR and are having a knee jerk reaction to what has happened. The theory is one of those that is good but not practical for the various reasons listed in the comments below.
DerekCooks
Derek Thomas 5
Preacher I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and your rated brethren. I don't believe any of my posts have indicated that I'm rated anything more than a seriously enthusiastic PAX, who has been lucky enough to ride several hundreds of hours in the right seat of various GA aircraft - resulting in the profile pic - not to mention many hundreds of hours, if not thousands, in commercial aircraft of all shapes and sizes, across the globe. But not up in the pointy end, excluding a few trips to the cockpit when I was 11 - 12, in the pre-hijacking days.

I Squawked the NY Times article because I thought it was an interesting piece - though I also note that it IS an "Opinon" piece. Knee Jerk? Only in my amazement at the numerous theories being thrown around, both here and in the media, about the totally unknowable - unless and until Malaysian 370 is discovered, God rest their souls.
preacher1
preacher1 2
I am impressed by the prompt response and did not mean my comment in any demeaning way. That said, I guess it's too early in the morning and I took the article as you personally and not from somewhere else. That does not change my view though on the transponders, for the various reasons below. Counting 911 and this one, we are talking about 5 flights out of how many thousand daily? If we locked out the transponders and then had a serious electrical fire that brought one down, we'd have the same hue and cry, only in reverse.
DerekCooks
Derek Thomas 1
None taken, Preach. Mark Duell's response immediately had me going, "oh, yeah, but of course." Not to mention the hundreds of times one has to respond to an "Ident" request or even change the code (Mostly in GA, going from IFR to VFR, or the reverse.

Peace, my friend, and have a safe and sunny day!
preacher1
preacher1 1
You know, what has always got me though, other than a need to be absolutely sure, the ATC controller has a box on his screen with your ID and all the info, and will still ask for a squawk. I don't know if that is procedure before making a change of some type or just uncertainty. I've got to ask one of these days. I know several CENTER folks. I'll have to find out.
STEELJAW
STEELJAW 1
One reason is that doing high traffic times when the radar is cluttered with other aircraft IFF data tags or storm clouds, it can be hard to make out a specific airplane's IFF. The controller will ask you to squawk to see you better. There are also times when all the data tag info does not show up on the radar scope, or it may be incorrect or garbage data tags. Certain atmospheric conditions and equipment malfunctions are normally the case of this. One other reason is to verify CUS SPD and ALT if you are flying close to military restricted airspace and they are doing a live fire exercise, you might be asked to squawk, just to verify your data tags.

[This poster has been suspended.]

preacher1
preacher1 3
anappy
Adam Ruemenapp 2
I thoroughly enjoy how we assume this was terrorism right away. Even though there is no aircraft to be found. While no one can say why this event occurred maybe we should wait for a conclusive evidence before we start taking away pilots capabilities for "saftey".
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
What would you call it when after ten days there is not the slightest sign of wreckage from an airliner and 239, fully-clothed passengers and crew? Something would have washed to the surface by this point.

So, if it did not crash then what was done with it and why? Why on earth would anyone take possession of a plane that would weigh a half-million pounds when fueled and full payload?
anappy
Adam Ruemenapp 2
Again, I said I don't know what happened, you don't know what happened either. It's ludicrous to base any "theory" on little to no evidence at this point. Amazingly there is still not enough data to suggest anything. However just for arguments sake let's say the pilots or some other party on board where involved in some conspiracy to take the aircraft for some reason. AS a pilot I don't want my control in the cockpit limited regardless. Perhaps it would make more sense force all international flights to go through the same level or security as US flights.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Well, a lot of us found out for the first time on Asiana 214 that foreign carriers were part 129 instead of part 121 like U.S. Carriers are and there are some differences. I personally think it should all be the same if they fly into the U.S., but that's just me.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 0
But there is evidence. And the evidence points to it did not crash. It was under control at all times with the only question of the climb and rapid descents.

As for security, we can only establish a minute level of control over those who enter our airspace but we cannot mandate they modify flight deck access, etc. Not even the UN would back that one.
pilotenthusiast
Ethan Begrowicz 1
The plane could also be at the bottom of the Indian ocean which is exceptionally deep
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
Okay, I'll bite.

Find an example of a commercial airliner where no debris was discovered on the surface.
tcmarks
Tim Marks 1
Plane changes direction with no request or clearance at the handoff point between two enroute centers (Malaysia and Vietnam), transponder lost shortly thereafter, then ACARS shortly after that. No ELT, debris within the search area immediately around the last know contact with the aircraft. Radar determines the aircraft climbs above nominal operation ceiling, descends losing more than 20K, then climbs again to a moderate cruising altitude. Satellite data pings indicate the aircraft was much further west than the last radar contact. These little tidbits of information don't point to a catastrophic event that ended in a crash in Southeast Asia.
tcmarks
Tim Marks 1
Circuit Breakers are required for all electrical equipment on an aircraft - nothing is hardwired into the electrical system of any commerical aircraft. Granted, some circuit breakers are not located in the cockpit for direct pilot access and are intended for maintenance actions. But the 777 has a trapdoor in floor outside the cockpit that can access the forward electrical bay to gain access to the circuit breakers not inside the cockpit. Someone would have to know the electrical system of the 777 to know where these are located - and which CBs need to be pulled to disable communications systems without disabling flight critical systems.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 2
Les Abend, whom I believe flies a 777 for American, said on Megyn Kelly last night he's been down to the avionics compartment twice in four years.

If it's not an area with moving parts cycled a lot during operations and affected by the forces of flight all that much you're not going to be looking around there. That decreases the likelihood of familiarity of the panels.

The forward breaker panel on the S-3 I worked on was about a foot wide and maybe a dozen rows. I had to search each time for those I wanted to engage or pull. They don't just stick out at you. And most of the time they identify only circuit ID numbers, not the actual system being controlled. You would have to know what "CB217" applies to.
preacher1
preacher1 2
I was talking to a 777 Captain Saturday, and he said he has over 4000 in type, and did not know how to disable ACARS. This coincides with your point that it is not a routine are for a pilot to visit. It is more the domain of mx. Under normal conditions a pilot or crew member would not go down there except under direction of MTC.
DerekCooks
Derek Thomas 3
So, as a PAX enjoying my 1st class seat, if I see one of the flight crew open and descend into this bay, it's time for several more drinks, at least???

All the more reason for MH370=Accident=Does Not Compute. Not good.
HunterTS4
Toby Sharp 3
Yessir......buy him one also after you land.
STEELJAW
STEELJAW 1
What puzzles me is that not one passenger sent a cell phone call to anyone. There were many calls doing the United 93 hijack on 9/11. I understand that they were over the Ocean ,but not all the time as the new data states. If no one on-board attempted to send an emergency cell phone call, don't that hints at something or someone was preventing them from doing so on the plane? An yes, you can send and receive cell phone calls up to 40,000 feet if you are in range of a tower. Also, if the statements are true that some of the passenger cell phones were ringing when called, doesn't that prove that they were in range of a tower? We need Special Agents Fox Mulder (David Duchovny) and Dana Scully (Gillian Anderson)on this one.
I would try and get all the records of the cell phone towers withing 20 miles of the projected track on the plane to see if they had hits on the passengers cell phone serial # or ssid. Something stinks here.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 0
They likely thought it a fruitless effort given they were over the ocean.

Also, most on board were Chinese. Their culture is much more submissive to one in authority.
preacher1
preacher1 1
There is also a circuit breaker in the cockpit that would get most of it if you knew which one but in most cases, unless there is an Emergency of some type a pilot would not know which one to go to without direction from MTC.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Exactly... ACARS and Transponder, as well as 99% of all the other CB's are on the Flight Deck. No need to go to the Avionics Compartment...
pilot62
Scott Campbell 1
really - were gonna have this one ?
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 0
Will someone respond to the "Q" in the title - Why Can Pilots Still Shut Off Transponders?
Does the transponder mean the following or not ?

Transponder (aviation)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transponder_(aviation)

A transponder (short-for transmitter-responder[1] and sometimes abbreviated to XPDR,[2] XPNDR,[3] TPDR[4] or TP[5]) is an electronic device that produces a response when it receives a radio-frequency interrogation. Aircraft have transponders to assist in identifying them on air traffic control radar; and collision avoidance systems have been developed to use transponder transmissions as a means of detecting aircraft at risk of colliding with each other.[6][7]
Air traffic control units use the term "squawk" when they are assigning an aircraft a transponder code, e.g., "Squawk 7421". Squawk thus can be said to mean "select transponder code" or "squawking" to mean "I have selected transponder code xxxx .....

If so , ' Why Can Pilots Still Shut Off Transponders? '
And endanger lives of so many people, in that aircraft and of those in other in the neighbourhood ?
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
Asked and answered further down.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Dear friend , ' black box ' , sounds familiar ?
Can someone fiddle with it ? Even some specific hazards like fire , water and the like ?
Why ? Was it like this since the beginning ? If it changed, why was it changed ?
This is the kind of approach needed for such equipment !
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
Like anything they can be tampered with by someone intending harm. It is reasonably presumed that would never be the pilot.

The "black boxes" are now a bright, aviation orange to facilitate their discovery in an accident scene. But electronic boxes can be black or any other color. On the plane I worked on, they were black or tan.

The orange boxes holding flight data and cockpit voice are now designed to withstand so many degrees temperature for a given period. The duration has increased over the years with subsequent designs as the ability for fire retardant and temperature-resistant materials are improved.

As for access to disable any equipment which may be the source of fire, that shall never change.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Inflammability can be sorted out. That's not a big problem given the necessity .
It's the question of cost-benefit-ratio angle, no more no less.
Like for "black boxes" .
And what some of you have missed that when I say 'tamper proof', it can always include a system of giving a signal as and when the tampering (switching off a vital locational system) is being done .
Do you mean that it is the prerogative of the PIC to decide whether to make the aircraft invisible, electronically, or not ?
Is it a safe prerogative ? Even if the abuse occurs once in one year or once in 10 years ?
preacher1
preacher1 1
You have been given multiple answers to your questions in such frank and simplistic form that a child could understand them, yet you refuse to accept them, continuing to harangue this thread with your own views, making statements from a non aviator standpoint, rather than accepting an answer given to you in good faith. When you have gotten this way before, I have simply told you to kiss my a** and that I am outa here. I do it again.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Same to you my respected friend, reg. kissing !
Nay,you ain't worth it !
You seem incapable to agree to disagree.
Why you fail to see what the other person says ? With references ?
Is that what Americanism about ?
You say let 9/11 happen again, not in USA, let it happen else where.
Go ahead and write what ever b.s. you want to write .
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 0
You are expecting to equip an aircraft on the automatic assumption a pilot will at some point intentionally tamper or alter the configuration for the sole purpose of ill-intent. At that point, why not just put monkeys in the flight deck and fly the airliner like a remotely-operated military drone?

The probability of an airline pilot or any pilot carrying out such an act is far south of the 0.08% of concealed handgun license holders who commit a crime. I can think of only one case in the United States and that was an off-duty FedEx pilot facing termination. That's one pilot out of some 600,000 US pilots which includes air carrier and charter operators.

Now, I'm going to turn this around in such a politically incorrect way it's bound to piss off someone though I really don't care....

There is indeed a crash (Egypt Air 990) where the cause was clearly a Muslim suicide taking more than two hundred passengers with him. Though the Egyptian aviation authorities claimed differently and called it mechanical error, I'll put a lot more trust into the NTSB and Boeing who built the plane to say there was no mechanical error. The probable cause was inconclusive only to the point they did not explain why the first officer's actions were as indicated on the FDR. But it does not take a Phd based on CVR and FDR data to understand his actions were intentional to crash a plane.

So... How about we put Muslim pilots through a much greater mental health screening? Or, perhaps we ban all Muslims from being pilots? No other religion in the past couple hundred years has a record of committing acts seated in their religion. Certainly that's a rational basis for such action?

Yes, that's being a bit extreme. And, so is forbidding a pilot from having absolute control over the aircraft and its equipment as his responsibility.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
So let us close on the optimistic note that nothing bad happens. And MH 370 disappearance has nothing to do with transponder bieng off.
I do not wish to dilate any more on this.
Regards
STEELJAW
STEELJAW 1
You forgot that that aircraft was tracked by Thailand's military radar and had pings on satellite that had the aircraft on a southwesterly course towards the Indian Ocean. The aircraft is still visible to radar and satellites even with the IFF transponder off. The big question (and problem) is why these agencies did not effectively communicate and coordinate with one another after the aircraft's IFF signal was first lost. The Malaysian authorities took hours before they label the plane as missing. After the plane was initially lost, it appears that there was a lack luster attempt to find out if it was a successful hand off to the next ATC in route controller. Also, the fact that it happened at the precise time to hand off to the next controller leans toward someone purposely hijacking the plane at a very critical time. I wonder if this was a location/time where the radar and communication coverage was spotty. If so, it does not surprise me that the lost contact response time was too long. There are a lot of questions to be answered. However Mr Er.A.K. Mittal, shutting off the IFF transponder only prevents the plane from broadcasting IFF data. It does not make it invisible to radar or a satellite ping.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
To clarify, civilian aircraft do not have actual IFF or "Identification - Friend or Foe" installed. It's a simple transponder with a combination of 4096 codes. Military aircraft have an additional code which is installed before each sortie.

I have no clue what they use now but the KYs thirty years ago used a handheld box that a set of some twenty needles set to varying lengths based on the code for the day. We kept the codes in our shop safe and each one was burned after use. If it was lost or misplaced it was a pretty serious offense.

The handheld box was pressed into the KY box which set a digital code based on those needles. The little door was shut. If it was reopened, the code resets to zip.

For clarification, there was a KY-27 and a KY-28. One was for IFF and the other secure data/voice. I cannot recall which one was which. I'm sure those systems have long since been upgraded though it wouldn't take much to improve most. The computer on the S-3 Viking could be wildly outdone by a popular home computer of the time... a Commodore 64.

One last note... primary radar which Steeljaw alludes to is less efficient in distance than a return from a transponder. My understanding is a transponder will add about fifty miles at lower altitudes.
STEELJAW
STEELJAW 1
You are right Ken Lane, thanks for the clarification. I forgot there are civilians on this post. You bring back found memories with the KYs. I was the custodian for my division of the key codes. What a pucker factor! Misplace one of those key codes and you better off jumping overboard. I hated destroying them. You had to do it the day it was suppose to be destroyed, which meant I had to go outside/topside whether rain, sleet ,snow or 20 foot waves. As Ken stated above, once a aircraft is out of radar range,you can still track that aircraft by it's transponder codes. With the right atmospheric conditions, this was normally 50-100 miles, based on the aircraft's altitude. I'm sure that distance could also be affected by other factors ,such as the height of the radar antennae receiver and if it was land base or aboard a ship.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 0
I wonder if such sensitive items can be made made ' tamper proof ' like so many instruments or equipments ? Black box kind !
Even in the present ' open ' conditions the pilots can not repair them if these transponders go wrong !
Besides other dangers , non operational transponders can lead to collision hazard.
preacher1
preacher1 1
How do you tamperproof something that clearly must be worked by the pilot during the course of a flight, as evidenced by other comments here below. Cockpit instrument are meant to be and must be accessible for the pilot to fly the plane. As on poster says below, pilots are not potted plants. Even with automation, they do fly and are responsible for the plane.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Tamper proof as in for switching on/off , as for opening to reset , and similar actions !
Its on/off operation can be directly linked with some basic/initial function of the aircraft ! Like what is the first system you switch on while starting , which in turn may also be the last system to turn off while disembarking or the pilots getting off the plane !
The aviation experts can be made to put their heads on this . Brainstorming sessions can be organised .
Like it is said , there are more ways than one to skin a cat !
preacher1
preacher1 1
By making comments such as this, you are definitely putting yourself in the non aviation crowd by making such a remark about such a critical instrument. If you truly want to learn, you should refrain from such comments on technical matters. You have a string of ATP's, ex ATP's and instructors on this thread that have all given you valid reasons why it must be accessed. What more expert do you want, beside some trumped up bean counter that has never seen the pointy end of an Airplane. Go work for Airbus. They seem hell bent on taking the pilot out of the cockpit.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
I quote some of the lines from the referred article. And I am sure every reader will benefit from it. Agreeing with the idea can be another matter.
" ..... Why is there a transponder switch in the first place? Until recently, transponders had to be off when a plane was on the ground, to avoid sending signals that disrupted airport radar. The designs for some private aircraft — but not yet the large commercial planes — deal with this by using automated transponders that turn on when the planes become airborne, then turn off when they slow to taxi speed. ...... "
" .... The solution is a location-broadcasting system that the flight crew cannot switch off. Over the next few years, much of the world plans to adopt an aviation tracking standard called ADS-B, which should make it harder for a plane to stop reporting its position. Automated transponders should be part of that transition ...... "
" ....... Five of the last 10 major air disasters — the four 9/11 flights, and Flight 370 — began with the transponder’s being switched off. A few design changes can make that impossible..... "

And this is what I said .
Well nearly.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
First, I see no sign the author is a pilot, let alone has any significant experience in cockpit resources. He was supposed to have written an aviation section for a book on the 9/11 terrorist acts. But, still no indication of his qualifications. By my book I have more experience than he does just being a single-engine instructor teaching a thousand hours in glass cockpits.

As answered several times, you cannot have any piece of equipment on an aircraft you cannot disable and remove power to in some fashion. To not have such is setting the stage for an electrical fire that cannot have the ignition source extinguished.

ADS-B is a great system but it is still ground-based. It's worthless over water beyond a given distance. I do not know if there are any plans for uplinking data to satellites as there are no satellites that can currently receive a signal to relay to ground-based controllers. Perhaps someday they'll launch such satellites and design an uplink to install in the planes to work with it. Given full use of ADS-B is not mandated until 2020, I figure it will be 2050 before there is satellite use. We're talking government plans. But, just the same as transponders... it must have a means to disable it and disconnect power.

His last point you quote tells me the guy has no experience flying IFR in solid instrument conditions, let alone in a heavy volume area. I do not want a transponder sending erroneous data to a controller. If I'm equipped with only one transponder, that's it. Intermittent transponders are more irritating to controllers than a primary target they tag and follow. They'll ask for my altitude and I'll change only according to their instructions, especially if I'm flying into Hobby or Love with failed equipment.

My qualified opinion as a lowly flight instructor... the author of that article is an idiot.
preacher1
preacher1 2
Well said, my friend, especially that last line. LOL
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Dear Friends , I am confused , utterly.
Is following the gist of the combined view of you experienced pilots ?
PIC - pilot in command/control/charge. Which means the pilot is entitled to switch on or off any system like switching on/off communication , nav aids,directional / locational transponders and so on ?
All based on his/her choice/fancy/whim ?
The PIC can do what ever s/he fancies with a/c worth +150-450 Mn. PLUS lives of hundreds of souls ?
Or I lack common sense with all its derivatives ?
I learn what you guys tell me .
Remember that .
preacher1
preacher1 1
You are correct in that the PIC is in TOTAL CHARGE of that aircraft. That is what they are there for. No one on the ground can anticipate what will happen and you cannot plan everything. That is why any pilot, all the automation in the world notwithstanding, must know how to fly his plane. Even in Airline ops, dispatchers can put out a routing and required fuel, but it is Captain's option to accept it or change it due to wx or whatever. Same with fuel. wx may be OK but if he sees an advisory enroute or at destination of a stackup, he can take on more. Captain has the final say.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
You did not answer .
Is it inadvertent or deliberate ?
About certain specific systems , which directly concern or affect others, all around , in as well as outside !
preacher1
preacher1 1
PIC has to have control. I think this is inadvertent, not intentional. The following link was posted on FA a few days ago and makes more sense than anything I've heard. I may not agree with the cause of the fire but I think the hypothesis is pretty well spot on.
http://www.businessinsider.com/malaysia-plane-fire-2014-3
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
Plausible but I can't believe there would be no sign of debris by this point. Something from that bird is gonna float.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Well, everybody is making a kadoo about the radar hits Australia came up with last nite. It's 4 days old. Contrary to popular thinking, there are currents in the ocean so no telling where it came from and no telling where it is now. This plane has been missing 13 days and who's to say there wasn't a monumental debris field when it crashed. We didn't even start looking down this way until a week or so had gone by. Anything that floated would have probably waterlogged and sank and/or carried away by current in that time. idk
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
For US pilots, here's the rule...

Federal Aviation Regulations
§91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.

The first two lines allow the pilot to act in any fashion necessary for the safety of flight. There's no limit in that regard. Though rather extreme, even the action of inverted flight taken in the Denzel Washington movie, "Flight" would be authorized if it meant maintaining control by whatever means for the safety of flight.

This applies to any pilot in control of any aircraft regardless of size and type.

The third line simply means you may be called to answer for your actions. More often than not it's a record of what took place and what was done to compensate. Only if the action was not for the safety of flight would it be considered a "Pilot Deviation" and it cause the pilot to be called on the carpet before the FAA and possibly the NTSB.

Keep in mind, this rule applies only to US pilots acting in US airspace. But it is a generally accepted rule as adopted by ICAO with most nations around the world subscribing to those standards.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Yes and NO! One he has to follow company published procedures. One of those is that a transponder has to remain on for the entire flight, two, he is not to pull CB's unless directed to... No Maintenance Controller will have a crew member to pull a CB in flight, so NO, he is not allowed to randomly turn off systems for his personal reasons.
preacher1
preacher1 1
And this is all well and good and true in normal operation, but in this case, Mr. Murphy apparently walked thru the door and the S*** hit the fan. Aviate, Navigate, then communicate. In other words, FLY THE PLANE first, talk later. PIC in charge
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
That one got addressed after a couple fatal incidents years ago.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
That's just it, you cannot lock it on or make it so the pilot cannot have some control. I've had a transponder transmit the wrong altitude, transmit intermittently or other issues.

In such a critical situation in high-volume Class Bs or with RVSM you cannot have any misgivings of what the controllers see for your data. As I said in another post below, I'd rather a controller be troubled by asking my altitude due to no indication than trusting they'll remember what they're seeing is wrong.
preacher1
preacher1 1
I doubt he has any idea what you are talking about - High volume class B's or RVSM
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
Me either. I'm just some dumb single-engine flight instructor. ;-)

I've never even stayed at a Holiday Inn Express!
preacher1
preacher1 1
I have watched your posts and you seem pretty sharp & knowledgeable. My minimum money expires 4/1 and I basically start my 2nd retirement. They are going to keep me current up here. I'll maintain my cert til November if they don't lift the age again. Past that I don't know what I'll do yet but I might find my way down toward Austin and we'll have a cup. I heard it's starting to get busy down there and I haven't been down that way since the mid-80's. Dou you flu out of KAUS or the little one?
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
KAUS. I stay so busy with my business I don't teach any more. But I'd never be able to deal with many customers like I do without that experience. I fly for fun when I can. I miss teaching... except for when it's 110º in August!

Things are picking up a little. The new Austin Executive (KEDC) is a lot busier than I thought it would be. It's become a great reliever to Bergstrom and probably picking up a little traffic that previously went to San Marcos or Georgetown.
preacher1
preacher1 1
What kinda business you got going down there, if I might ask?
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
I started out selling flight training materials when I was still teaching and also flying for a lawyer. I kept on expanding and now handle pilot supplies, aircraft supplies, a few maintenance materials and tools and cleaning materials. Now, I live in a home that looks more like a warehouse with a bed and bathroom. I have a huge inventory taking over the place and sales are hitting $800k a year.

http://www.austinflightcheck.com/index.php

I have my web site as well as I'm on eBay with most of those listings populated on international sites. About 15% of my sales are international.

It keeps me busy with fifteen-plus hour days and most of the weekends. I have no problem saying I built the whole damn thing myself and not another single person had a hand in it, least of all the chief jerk in DC and all his cronies; nor their opposition.
preacher1
preacher1 1
LOL. I may hop down there one of these days on a currency check ride and have a look at it. Sounds like you know what you'll be doing every day when you get up. LOL
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
I doubt if you can fathom the scope of concept of ' brain storming '. Or can you ?
Question I am raising is how to guard AGAINST abuse of the ability to switch on/off any crucial system like communication and/or locational kind ! Which involves so many others , whose safety is of prime importance. Those inside and those outside,in other birds .
None of you is trying to answer that.
All you and those from your tribe are trying to do is to project that I am someone with brains located below the shoulders ! Ha !
Bravo for being so intelligent .
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
The only answer is that it must be placed in the hands of professional pilots with the good faith it will be used properly like every other tool on that aircraft.

Such has been done before and a change in rules as well as later designs was the only fix. An airliner which model I cannot recall had a breaker that controlled an alarm that would alert if power exceeded a given point without flaps and slats extended. Often, crews would taxi on one engine at a greater power level and the alarm would sound so they disabled the alarm by pulling the breaker.

There was an incident where they attempted to depart without slats extended and the aircraft failed to climb. The result was catastrophic with all but one life lost.

Procedures and rules were changed forbidding pulling breakers to silence any alarm. Later designs allowed the engine power of one engine to advance without the alarm.

You cannot remove such control from the pilot. The reasons have been given and they are more than valid.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
It's time to understand what a transponder means and the way I am referring to .
Kindly check the following

Transponder (aviation)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transponder_(aviation)

A transponder (short-for transmitter-responder[1] and sometimes abbreviated to XPDR,[2] XPNDR,[3] TPDR[4] or TP[5]) is an electronic device that produces a response when it receives a radio-frequency interrogation. Aircraft have transponders to assist in identifying them on air traffic control radar; and collision avoidance systems have been developed to use transponder transmissions as a means of detecting aircraft at risk of colliding with each other.[6][7]
Air traffic control units use the term "squawk" when they are assigning an aircraft a transponder code, e.g., "Squawk 7421". Squawk thus can be said to mean "select transponder code" or "squawking" to mean "I have selected transponder code xxxx


You and your so many other colleagues all are highly knowledgeable guys and are equally capable to teach the ignorant.
This is as good an occasion as any. Kindly try .
Many will gain, not only me !
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
That explanation is sufficient short of saying it is an electrical device that can fail, operate intermittently or transmit erroneous information. In the event of that it must have the capability for disabling.

It can also be the ignition source for an electrical fire or the wiring leading to it. That breaker must be accessible to the pilot.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Extending your rationale, EVERYTHING in the a/c is fallible including wing or tail or door or engine unhinging and falling out.
So what is to be done ? Let PIC handle it ? It's will be a joke ! Yes .
So the argument is that since an electrical system is fallible therefore PIC can take'liberties' with it .
YES if it sending wrong information and PIC is sure of it, go ahead turn it off/on as the need be .
BUT in normal situation fiddling is nothing short of sabotage .
And that seems to be the crux of what the author of the article has said, whether s/he is a pilot or not .
Never forget, it's engineers who design, build and redesign aircrafts, THOUGH pilots fly them.
And vice-a-versa, if you please.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
Yes, and you must place good faith in a pilot.

Interviews for commercial pilots are as much about mentality and attitude as they are technical and flight skills. At least that's the case in the US.

We have no control over foreign carriers.

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