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Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 Shot Down Over Ukraine

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The Malaysia Airlines plane, which was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, was travelling at an altitude of 10km (6.2 miles) when it was shot down, Russia's Interfax reported. The Boeing 777 was brought down by a Buk ground-to-air missile, an adviser to the Ukrainian interior ministry quoted by the news agency said. The adviser said 280 passengers and 15 crew members who were on the plane are all believed to have died. (flightaware.com) Ещё...

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joelwiley
joel wiley 11
On July 3, 1988 the USS Vincennes launched a missile that brought down Iran Air flight 655. This could be something similar, or it could be a deliberate act of provocation. I don't think it likely that somebody inadvertently tripped and and fell on a launch buttons. My thoughts and sympathy goes out to the families of the souls aboard.
TXCAVU
Elizabeth Robillard 18
55 planes flew the same route (SIN was 16 miles behind this MH) and 300 were scheduled on that route that day. With a 20 mile range those missiles could have taken out any aircraft at cruise altitude.
Moviela
Ric Wernicke 3
With all due respect, it is not the route. It is Putin. He has been trouble since he ran the KGB. He does not like any over flight of "Mother Russia." and was just another opportunity to advance his agenda with plausible deny ability.

No one in Russia brings fibrous material in proximity of their posterior without permission from Putin. These were not bumbling characters operating the Buk, but seasoned disciplined troops following the orders of Putin.

Malaysia should give him his fair trial, and dispatch his mortal coil with the same respect and moral treatment currently being afforded the victims of MH17

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

OleEskildsen
Ole Eskildsen 18
Dear Martha,

Your comments are so enlightning. It is good you are in this forum so you can put us all right about the goings on in the world. You seem so insightful.

One thing that has got me wondering is this:
Your name: Martha Eskridge.
That sounds like an English name which gives the impression that you are living in an English speaking country like for instance the US. In your comment above you are blaming United States for many bad things going on in the world and then you say (in part):
"How can THIS be considered a Christian country when WE wish to deliberately create harm to others....OUR president says to put harder sanctions on Russia ..."

--- That comment suggests that you are American.

However, your comments in the English language are so full of mistakes that even a primary (elementary) school child can write better English!

This has really got me puzzled.

Are you really an American blaming the United States and their president for nearly everything that is going wrong in the world?
OR
Are you a Russian or a related nationality pretending to be an American?

You can see from my name, which is my real name, that I am Scandinavian, so my mother tongue is not English. You can therefore not say tham I am trying to defend the Americans because I am American.

Your comments (in Pidgin-English) defending poor old Russia and Putin, totally ignoring the facts, make me think you are a Russian trying to promote Putin's ideology. What a crying shame that good old Stalin is gone, wouldn't it be wonderful to have him as a leader again?
manifa01
Mario Farias 2
iflyifr
iflyifr 4
Good reply to martha. I would bet she is a muslim who is one of those who do not like the muslim country she came from. She came to America because it is so much better and then complains about how terrible it is.
Bobqat
Bob Harrington 3
Sadly, whatever Martha's background, there are far too many actual Americans who parrot the same bs.
elkesley
Allan Hickman 1
Now there's a guy that REALLY knew how to get rid of people, I don't think too many complained at the time about "Uncle Joe".. I often wonder why ?
elkesley
Allan Hickman 1
Uncle Joe knew how to get rid of people there were not many complaints at the time !!
jbr41
John Reed 2
I hope you don't have a pilot's license.
iflyifr
iflyifr 4
Martha, where is your twisted mind coming from and, more importantly where is it going? Most citizens of the world know that the so-called palestinians are the entire cause of the hostilities toward Israel. The leaders there (local because there is no nation) are the trouble makers. They fire hundreds of rockets into Israel. And they have been fighting and threatening the nation for years. The leaders have sworn to eliminate Israel since its inception. The so called palestinians are a group of uneducated non contributing people who are breeding at an astronomical rate and pose a threat to world wide peace.They have sworn to eliminate all non-muslims worldwide. Cowards that hide arms in schools and hospitals that guarantee casualties
and then complain about civilians being killed! And to think that the world supports them with food and ill conceived thoughts like yours. America is the worlds largest contributor of good will, freedom and assistance in the worlds history. By the way Israel did not steal land from anyone. Get real!
preacher1
preacher1 4
Well, one has to get into history into the partitions after WW2, and you will find that Israel didn't steal land from anybody. What they have was given to them. It is the other Arab countries that encroached and took what originally was Palestine. Sad part is, I actually have to fault the Israelis for wanting peace though. If they will look back in the Bible, their ancestors were given victory by God and were told to annihilate all foreign tribes and not to keep any of the spoils. The enemies were around all the time. There was never much peace and I think this just carries over into today. Obviously, somebody will disagree with this opinion but it is mine and I have the right to express it. It is obvious to me that while some folks say they are peaceful, history shows that the Muslim world has never been interested in physical things but in converts. I, for one, choose not to be converted.
kw77
katty wompus 5
So the British stole the land and gave it to Israel, so that makes it OK. Thanks for clearing that up.
joelwiley
joel wiley 5
Oh come now, that was just a side-show for the British/French perfidy at the end of WWI. Look at the reasons for cramming Kurds, Shias and Sunnis together in Iraq to keep any of the groups from gaining enough power to take the oil fields back for their own benefit.

But that is off topic, better it turns to the history of the Crimean Peninsula.
rarebear14
Dolf Brouwers 2
The United Nations created Israel.....and the Israelis inspite of being attacked many times by their neighbours made it a prosperous country....
preacher1
preacher1 3
Well, just because you don't like history, you can't rewrite it to suit yourself. That all happened before my time, and although I don't know you, probably yours. I didn't say nothing about it being OK but that is how it got there, and yes go back and look; it was all partitioned after the war but you will find Jordan and some of the other Arab brethren screwing the Palestinian people out of their land. Best I remember, Jordan alone was less than half it's size before they started grabbing Palestine, so you can't blame it all on Israel!!
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
Martha, I believe your Wikipedia sources from which you draw your illustrations has already changed and no longer support your assertions.

You refer to :the war in the Gulf in which escalated more after 9/11...." To which war do you refer? If you go back to the 19th century Great Game, and move forward through WWI, ,WWII and forward, you have innumerable ones from which to choose.

just idle curiosity....
elkesley
Allan Hickman 0
No mention in here of the Brits... are you RACIST ?
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Now that you mention it, the Brits have been mentioned.
aleoper
Al Roper 2
55 planes belonged to airlines that either had no risk assessment department or had a department that decided the risk was low, or decided it was legal, so must be okay. No need to spend money on a longer route. This is not 20/20 hindsight. At least half a dozen airlines said no to flying over Ukraine. A handful of planes had already been shot down in the last few months. This tragedy is nothing different then civilians being killed all over the world as collateral damage when two sides are shooting at each other. Outsiders need to be smart enough not to wander blindly into the middle of the fighting. This is what airlines overflying war zones, are doing. I expect an immediate change to rules for overflying conflict zones. An immediate establishment of no fly zones, around any country shooting armed missiles at any aircraft.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
I'm told the system and missel are good for up to FL75.0 Now I see why they retired the XR71
pdixonj
pdixonj 1
Exactly, MH#17 just "happened" to be the aircraft that was struck. It could have easily been any one of those other flights.
marilynchaiken
marilyn chaiken 8
It's terrible that there is not an INTERNATIONAL LAW that prohibits ALL planes from flying over certain airspace. It SHOULD NOT be left to individual airlines to make this decision!!!!!
kypcs66
Phillip Cox 3
Because it would cost some CEO a few dollars in bonus....
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
I wonder if they will fly a different course after this.
NEVILLEMO
NEVILLE Morrissey 14
I feel so sorry for those people who are dead, not because of an accident, but because of stupid nations at odds with each other and without any consideration for other people. My sympathy to all of those families who have lost loved ones, particularly to those in my home country Australia. So very sad. And poor Malaysian Airlines, what have they done other than what they are supposed to. They are a good airline, so do not avoid them - not their fault...
rkelley4
rob kelley 6
Terrible incident....my prayers to the family and the lost souls...
rarebear14
Dolf Brouwers 11
Its not an incident ! Its mass murder !!!
isardriver
isardriver 16
GOD bless all those people. wow - speechless
joelwiley
joel wiley 20
This is turning into Malaysia Airlines' annus horriblis.
OleEskildsen
Ole Eskildsen 1
Don't you mean:
annus horribilis?
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
yes, please excuse my typi horribles
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
You're so right Joel. I can't remember any other airline having consecutive major accidents with all souls lost in such a short time. Snake-bit?
jeffinsydney
jeff slack 3
Hmm?
Short memory (all due respect) Pan Am; before Lockerbie. Google the highjackings and problems before it finally did the sell out to DELTA.....after Lockerbie.

Malaysian Airlines, sadly may just go the same way.
SWEATINTHSWAMP
SWEATINTHSWAMP 2
Correct and Delta had a streak there of several accidents.
bbabis
Bill Babis 0
I don't think we'll miss Malaysian the way Pan Am is missed. I did google it and did not find two consecutive with all souls lost. It may have happened, I just haven't found it yet.
OleEskildsen
Ole Eskildsen 3
I would miss Malaysian Airlines, it is an excellent airline, as good as any other I have flown and I have done the routes between Australia - Asia - Europe about 45-50 times (I have lost count).
I would gladly fly with Malaysian.
tuanton
tuanton 1
Pretty inappropriate remark to make about MAS in the circumstances.
bbabis
Bill Babis 3
Ole and tuanton, you are right and I apologize to all. I mentioned snake-bit earlier and that seems to be the case. Malaysian Airlines, while not entirely without fault, is also not directly to blame for the total loss of two aircraft and all onboard. It is probably safe to say that operations will change but the airline will be here for a long time to come. Once again I am sorry and may all involved rest in peace.
joelwiley
joel wiley 0
How many in the space of one year?
mpradel
Marcus Pradel 1
How about 4 in 1 day?

This is like grouping the 9/11 crashes with the a flight that broke up over Jamaica Bay 1 month later..
larena77
des quinn 1
The MH17 was NOT The Company or Gov fault , THEY DID NOT FIRE THE ROCKET that killed the people & crew, GOD BLESS THEM and BRING them home to there country . HANG THE MURDERING KILLERS of this very bad AVIATION Problem as we all will pay in the long run , THINK ABOUT THIS?
Colgor8
Jhon Lewis 9
mattwestuk
Matt West 6
I think what it is showing is that every other airlines is passing to the south, including a Lufthansa flight. MAS17 is the only flight in that area, which means it may have been in the wrong place at the wrong time.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish -2
Again another example of poor management/ piloting by Malaysian Airlines. To go into a war zone (where 2 airplanes had been downed earlier this week) was imprudent at best and recklessly negligent at worst. All the other airliners traveling similar routes had taken a different more southern path, farther away the troubled area.
FlySFO
Rohit Rathor 3
Regardless, this air crash cannot be blamed on Malaysian Airlines. Other aircraft have flown in that vicinity numerous times in the past few weeks, and the particular air space was not a no-fly zone. Should MAS have chosen that flight path? No. Is it their fault that their plane got shot down? No, not by any means.
FlySFO
Rohit Rathor 2
Tragic event regardless, hate to see such an event take place regardless of the circumstances. Thoughts and prayers to the families
preacher1
preacher1 1
Well, there were 26 other AC in that area at the time. The normal flight patch was about 200 miles further South. They were on L980 due to WX. It was not restricted.
andinesh2
DINESH NARAYANAPPA 0
Looks like Communication problem.The warning was not clear of the conflict.
geobo
Geo Bo 2
Could you please comment on your screenshot.
Its meaning is not yet clear to me.
pdixonj
pdixonj 3
I think it's already been established that the airspace MH17 was flying through was "not" classified as a no-fly area by the ICAO. It's just that it happened to be taking that particular northerly route on that particular day. There is no official indication that the flight was in an area that it "shouldn't" have been in...just that it was in an area that it doesn't "normally" fly in, possibly due to enroute weather. In any case the actual restricted area was further to the south, over Crimea and the Black Sea and up an altitude of about 30,000 feet.
folderol
T. D. Blodgett 2
narit01
Ian Narita 1
Looking at the track logs and filed planned flight speed (?) EVA at the lead of this group was flying significantly slower then the other flights. It looks like ATC may have been trying to get other flights around EVA88.
AJACOBS2
Alan Jacobson 8
I fear the Black Boxes will tell us too little too late. If a missile brought the aircraft down, it was one of two types. A proximity fuse or contact fuse. BUK can have either as they have a myriad of variants for land or naval use. It's as up to date as anything in the West and they even have export models.

The proximity fuse AKA radar homing missile emits shrapnel and literally shards the target. The 2nd type the contact or up your tailpipe follows a heat signature. Both get directed in the general direction at launch and are then guided to the vicinity of the target.

The RUSSIAN BUK system, suspected but not proved yet has been around since the late eighties has potential, combat read in 5 minutes with a probability of 90–95% with aircraft kills to a height and distance of 72,000 feet from launch. The BUK has a warhead capable of 154 pounds of explosive which is in the naval version. One BUK unit division size could of taken out the entire Ukraine Navy.

The Black Box (orange in reality) that monitors the engine and aircraft performance probably just came to a severe halt when the entire systems went down at once. Most, probably none of the sensors continued on.

The voice recorder will stand a one in a million chance only if the aircraft was warned of say receiving a message "you are violating airspace' and the pilot replied. Most likely not. It will simply end, they never knew what hit them.

Ironically the only thing the recorder could tell us perhaps if it wasn't a missile and a catastrophic explosion of some sort took place. I seriously doubt it.

The eastern separatists had declared a shoot down zone over the eastern end of Ukraine up to 31,000 feet vertical. MH 17 was at 33,000. Answer will come from those nice new satellites we launched last month from Florida, the ones the TV didn't show.....

The real clues will come from metal analysis, direction of structure change (blow in or blowout) residual markers or residue from the missile components, the shards. Good old metal spectroanalysis... It's just like a CIS investigation if the separatists allow folks to do their job and most likely they will get in the way since they have claimed eastern Ukraine as a new country......in their minds....
tbpera
Tom Pera 8
what makes you think the separatists are going to turn over the black boxes?
jamesonrt
Robert Jameson 6
If the separatists are innocent (as they claim), they will be eager to prove it by turning over the black boxes ASAP. If they refuse, they are hiding something.
artems
Artem Salpagarov 5
They are calling for international investigation since yesterday. Ukrainian government is calling as well, though.

Anyway, I don't believe that the ones responsible for this will be taken to justice. Buk is a highly mobile system. You can fire from it and 5 minutes later you're very far away. The only chance is if 2 big radars detected that rocket: one in Russia and one in Germany, for instance. And then some US satellite could tell us where this particular Buk came from - separatists or Ukrainian army.

I don't really believe in this scenario. Politics will blame each other.
JoeyBagadoughnutz
Joey Bagadoughnutz 1
They already said they were, to authorities in Moscow.
yr2012
matt jensen 0
NTSB headed there. Will preserve the murder site.
BaronG58
BaronG58 1
I just saw on news they are sending one FBI agent and one NTSB person. This does not make sense to me.....how effective could just two people be? Maybe they are just going to observe.
sgbelverta
sharon bias 1
Probably smart. We don't want a bunch of Americans to become targets during this war. The thugs might not be able to tell a military plane from a commercial liner at 30,000 feet, but a jacket with FBI in big letters will attract plenty of attention.
JetMech24
JetMech24 1
It only takes one person from each department to verify it wasn't a hijacking (FBI) and it wasn't a faulty aircraft (NTSB), since everyone knows it was shot down.
expalman1
Paul Lascari 2
The flightaware data shows the plane just climbing to 31,000 feet. It was *not* at the reported 33,000.
AirBalance
Jeff Lewis 1
Take a closer look, Paul. The track and graph function shows a climb to FL330 while being worked by Polish ATC.
expalman1
Paul Lascari 1
fhopper
Frank Hopper 4
Martha why doesn't Putin the Savior simply blow Israel off the face of the Earth in the name of World Peace? Or better yet give the Crimea to the Palestinians as a home land? The one thing democracy does is show a leader that the people are not always with him. In our country, (not yours), we have been in legislative gridlock for years because our voters are divided on national and world policies, our people decide what does or does not happen, in your country Putin decides and those who are vocal about disagreeing die.
wsudu
John Jacobs 4
How sad, and on the 18th anniversary of TWA-800.
yr2012
matt jensen -5
You mean it wasn't the center fuel tank?
latteju
latteju 1
Why does that Flightaware tracking line stop in the Western part of the country? The article states that the plane was shot down near Donetsk, which is in the Eastern part of the country.
Eastern would also be more consistent with the Ukrainian/Russian war zone, so I reckon the article is correct and the tracking line is missing the last bits.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Donetsk,+Donetsk+Oblast,+Ukraine/@44.5067536,18.2580422,5z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x40e0909500919a2d:0x36335efdc5856f84
latteju
latteju 1
Ignor my previous post. Now the tracking line continues to the Donetsk region. May have been related to FA server problems.
zathras
Jim Shepherd 2
I think so, my browser didn't show the flight path on the map at all for a while.
robertrlowery1970
Rob Lowery 4
This area was not part of a no fly zone
truzzovolante
Fabio Monti 4
The man sometimes exceeds the facts of their own mind. A great hug to all the people who have lost their dear in terrible and cowardly incident.
fpk2
fernando kosop 4
more innocents paying for somebodyelse´s mistakes!!! the international comunity should punish the responsibles with military actions AT ONCE !!!! not sleep over it!!! as usual.
CloudSurfer89
CloudSurfer89 4
I found this NOTAM of interest.

URRR ROSTOV NA DONU A2681/14 NOTAMN
Q) URRV/QFALT/IV/NBO/AE/000/999/4716N03949E005
A) URRR B) 1407170000 C) 1408312359 EST
E) DUE TO COMBAT ACTIONS ON THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE NEAR THE
STATE BORDER WITH THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION AND THE FACTS OF FIRING
FROM THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE TOWARDS THE TERRITORY OF RUSSIAN
FEDERATION, TO ENSURE INTL FLT SAFETY DEP FM/ARR TO ROSTOV-NA-DONU
AD TO/FM MOSCOW FIR CARRIED OUT ALONG ATS RTE:
G128 KONSTANTINOVSK NDB (KA) - MOROZOVSK VOR/DME (MOR) AND
R11 MOROZOVSK VOR/DME (MOR) - BUTRI ON ASSIGNED FL.
DEP FM ROSTOV-NA-DONU AD TO DNEPROPETROVSK FIR CARRIED OUT ALONG
ATS RTE A102 KONSTANTINOVSK NDB (KA) - NALEM ON FL340 AND ABOVE.
ARR TO ROSTOV-NA-DONU AD FM DNEPROPETROVSK FIR CARRIED OUT ALONG
ATS RTE A712 TAMAK - SAMBEK NDB (SB) THEN DCT KONSTANTINOVSK NDB
(KA) ON FL330 AND ABOVE.
jhmackeyll
JOHN MACKEY 7
My prayers and thoughts go out to all aboard the flight, their families and country of residence.
ania1961
Ania Anna 7
How odd it is that the plane started flying 7/17/1997, went down 7/17/14, 17 years, and the flight number is MH17... RIP everyone.
robertrlowery1970
Rob Lowery 6
There is recorded audio of russsian separatists admiting they meant to shoot it down but they didnt know what it was.
elkesley
Allan Hickman 1
Shoot first and think afterwards, like the old Wild West, with Shocking results.
yr2012
matt jensen 1
Flight cancelled - ya think?
jimp9106
james pomerville -1
Whose the down vote troll ?
Lorna73
Lorna Sallis 3
Horrible horrible event for all the people concerned and their families. Even more horrific because of the
fact that it is the second Malaysian Airlines plane to have met with such a tragic end in the space of only four months. My heart goes out to them all.
thompson36532
Peter Thompson 3
No matter who's spin is put on this tragedy, and there will be several as we all know, the fault simply lies with the people who 1) fired the missile, and 2) the folks who provided the missile that got fired. It's absolutely horrible that the world is again fighting over who killed a planeload of innocent men, women, and children.
nuna
nuna 5
Why a NO FLY ZONE was used by Malaysian Airlines?
- Despite the flight been in a very high ceiling corridor
- Despite the fact that was definnatly a collective murder;
- Despite all European warnings issued by the European Aerial Agency since April for this particular conflict area.

Remember also that, there are several conflict zones with the same warning issued:
a) Syria (all space),
b) Israel (gaza border),
c) Ukraine/Russia border

WHY?
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
Where do you come up with the No Fly Zone? Check <Flightaware.com> and see the number of flights over the same area.
larena77
des quinn 1
It was NOT A NO FLY ZONE < Get the facts correct idiot
FlyEagleOne
FlyEagleOne 0
Presumably, they felt safe at FL33. Malaysian Airlines should he held culpable for not diverting around a known war zone even if it meant a stop for refueling. This tragedy could have been averted. Unfortunately I don't believe that Malaysian Airlines is going to cooperate on this incident any more than the did with the disinformation they spilled out on MH370.
FlySFO
Rohit Rathor 2
Malaysia Airlines should not be held culpable but rather the inhumane IDIOTS who shot this plane down. Think about it: these militants or whoever they were KNEW that this was commercial airspace. With that said, they should be able to differentiate a spy plane from a commercial aircraft. Furthermore, Malaysian was not only the aircraft flying in the airspace. MANY other aircraft were also flying in the same area. Therefore, just because Malaysian got hit doesnt mean we should blame Malaysian. We should collectively blame three parties: ALL AIRLINES not avoiding the airspace (NOT just Malaysian), thr international community for not making it a no-fly zone, and obviously the MILITANTS who were too ignorant to even consider the fact that this indeed was a commercial airplane. You should know what you're firing at before you fire at it, don't you think? Sorry for the use of caps lock, but those needed extra attention.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
FYI, I think your use of caps for emphasis is appropriate. Not that I agree or disagree with your points.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
Give me a break. A 2 degree course change at the flights inception would have carried it well away from the conflict area. A four degree change at that point would put the flight back where it was destined. There was no need to refuel, we're not talking the national debt. Look how much they lost with this crapsshoot. 298 souls and a perfectly good, expensive airplane.
preacher1
preacher1 1
A lot has been made about the Flight Levels. 33 or 35 would not have mad any difference as the thing had capability to take out something at 70000 in needed.

Also, it was not a no fly zone. Their normal course was about 200 miles South. They diverted because of wx on their normal route and that is what they were given. FAA had already put a warning out to U.S. Carriers and they were not on it but many other Airlines were still using it, so as far as filing and flying it, nothing sinister or out of the ordinary, just an extreme stroke of bad luck.
stephenmitchelldo
Stephen Mitchell 5
Martha, in the mid 1930's we sat by idly and watched a mentally unstable leader gain power, and ended up in a very bloody World War 2 that cost millions of lives, either through Hitler's hand directly, or the hands of those trying to remove him. Nonetheless, we learned our lesson, and are not allowing history to repeat itself. I think you have been watching too much "Scandel" to think the US directly had a hand in downing this plane. This is not a forum for religious debate. No matter what happened, the focus now is on the tragedy of nearly 300 souls lost unnecessarily. Whatever god each person on that place chose to believe in, I hope they are safe with him now.
crocuz
crocuz 4
Regarding the previous message "U.S. intelligence sources".
The legal system of the air incident investigation based on territorial grounds.
The crash of B777-200 occurred at an altitude of
alleged ~30000 feet in the territory, where the government of Ukraine has been conducting constant military operations against citizens of Ukraine from March 2014.
1. The status of these military operations is not classified according to legal system of Ukraine.
2. This "military zone" had not been reported as "closed zone" for civil air traffic authorities.
In April 2014 Eurocontrol failed to advise to close the flights over Ukraine due to military operations in the territory of Ukraine for other European civil authorities.
So presently, as I see, Eurocontrol is responsible for loss of 295 lives of MH17 AMS-KUL due to failure to react on military actions of the government of Ukraine inside Ukraine.
Civil aviation is not politics and is not a game with lives.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
The US had advised that US flag planes avoid the area for many months. Malaysia and EuroControl should've been having planes avoid that area as well. It was imprudent to send planes into a hostile area. Especially after other planes had been shot down.
crocuz
crocuz 2
1. There are coder-share agreements, according to which scheduled flights, for example, Lufthansa and Emirates maintain their routes jointly with other, including US, air lines.
Additionally, the grave air incident does not divide dead bodies on their citizenship.
2. The B772 of MH17 had arrived in the border of an air zone of Ukraine, which failed to provide the area, where the army conduct the operations, from Poland.
Warsaw (Poland) air zone is managed by directives of Eurocontrol.
Eurocontrol failed to issue directive to close the direction "Poland air traffic point - Ukraine air traffic point" since they had commenced military operations in April 2014.
microwalda
microwalda 0
The guy who launched the missile is responsible for the loss of 295 lives, not Eurocontrol.
bbabis
Bill Babis 4
This will be an intentional inadvertent act. They meant to shoot the aircraft down, they just didn't know what they were shooting down. Whomever finally admits it is just the biggest loser of the waring parties. The other side, who would have shot it down also, is secretly relieved while they show no mercy to the guilty side. Meanwhile, why the hell was Malaysia airlines even close to the area to play a part in this fiasco? Every other airline is circumnavigating the area.
Changyuraptor
Changyuraptor 3
I agree with you precisely Bill! Why was this particular MH17 flight flying so far north of its previous flight as shown in point 2 or that of KAH809 in point 1 below? To save fuel? Whatever the reason we may never know! Hopefully, it was not deliberate by the MAH pilots to log that particular flight path when previous flights were going further south or far north and over Russian territory as in point 4 below.

1. KAH809 July15/16 flew further south directly over the island Azov-Syva'kyi National Park.
2. MH17 July15/16 flew just south of Mariupol, still much further north of the KAH809 flight above.
3. The lost MH17 flight of July17/18 was shot down between Donetsk and Luhansk well north of both of these other flight paths.
4. KAH809 July17/18 incidentally flew over Latvia and Russia and totally avoided Ukraine.
preacher1
preacher1 4
However it came down, I would at least hope that Malaysian Airlines would have their act together and be much more quickly forthcoming on flight info than they were on MAS370.
Wayne47
Michael Townsley 3
It would be interesting to know if post MH 370 Malaysian Air had upgraded the tracking telemetry they are getting in real time from their 777s as that could be important information. I would expect that Russians are busily sanitizing the site of any evidence that could implicate them or the origin of the missile fired.
AirBalance
Jeff Lewis 2
I sure agree on the need for TRANSPARENCY. BUT... and this really puzzles me, why in the hell are the ATC officials not showing everything they have? They had a front-row seat. They saw the tracks on radar; they had the radio communications that would capture in real time the communications we want to study on the FDR. This flight was worked through Warsam FIR, then L'Viv FIR, Kiev FIR, and the final FIR at Dnipropetrovs'k. These controllers approved the routes, cleared the altitudes. If anything odd happened (mechanical, intercept) or if the B777 started diving toward Donetsk, they saw it. The Public has a deep vested interest in aviation security and all details of this flight need to be fully opened up.

If we had true, caring government officials - elected, as well as those appointed to head aviation agencies - MH17 would be a wake-up call for aviation transparency. Instead, all they seem to want to do is hide the facts and spin the story, while people grieve and suffer and lose confidence.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Strange that nothing has been heard from Malaysian Airlines other than they lost contact with it.
n7224e
BC Hadley 2
Based on past experience, I wouldn't expect to hear anything from Malaysian for at least a couple of days, maybe longer.
Wayne47
Michael Townsley 1
Since Malaysian Air is owned and operated by the Malaysian Government the loss of yet another plane is a huge embarrassment to that Government so any official information will have to be highly distilled through the bureaucracy before public release. In these circumstances government owned airlines as we have seen before are not often handled well because of the potential local political implications.

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 0
That last time, the news didn't come out until (the next morning local time) many hours after the plane went missing at about midnight local time. Only the airline and local ATC (Malaysia, Vietnam) knew about the lost contact with that other plane. This time it happened in broad daylight, over land in an area that is being closely monitored because of the hostilities. (In fact last time, we heard the excuse that many intelligence resources were focused on this location - the Ukraine area - and not the southern Indian Ocean.) We heard about this crash immediately after it happened. So it is easier to see how long it actually takes the airline to jump into gear. That last time they had had the whole night to prepare, while the rest of the world knew nothing about the missing plane.
iflyifr
iflyifr 6
Anne, hold on, my kids read this board; I don't appreciate your getto talk. Stuff it!

[This poster has been suspended.]

locomoco
M.F. LaBoo 0

[This poster has been suspended.]

Doobs
Dee Lowry 2
Chis, I apologize for the last text. The post went to the planet "Crypton" for some reason. We have to leave Martha alone. She already has been "ripped a new one" by many posters. We may disagree but again, it's a forum and there are alot of opinions out there. There are alot of people that thinks that their opinion is the right opinion.
Doobs
Dee Lowry 2
What was the Flight Management thinking when they put that Flight Plan together? The warnings were out there and they ignored the warnings. The flights prior to MH 17 took a much different vector.
1) AMS to KUL is 6363 miles.
2) AMS to DME (Moscow) to KUL is 6410 miles.
#2 is well beyond the distance needed to avoid eastern Ukraine. So the increased distance needed to avoid the area is less than the 47 miles between routes #1 @ #2 above. If this is validated as being correct, there is no "economic" reason to fly over a designated war zone. Doesn't matter what altitude you are at. Airlines always look for the most fuel efficient "flight plan" to get from point "A" to point "B".
Maylaysia Dispatch should have avoided that area altogether. It's just common sense. They were "trigger happy"...not really sophisticated but armed with sophisticated weapons. The "Buk". A Russian missile that is 16ft long, weighs 1500lbs, has a warhead that's 154lbs and has the lightening speed of 2684 mph. Three times the speed of sound. The Flight path/plan should have avoided this area at all costs. But they didn't and 295 souls lost their lives when it could have been prevented with a simple and more logical "Flight Plan". To the souls on MH17...God Speed.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
As I have understood, every fly zone has an authority looking after the 'welfare' of the airspace.
This authority issues permission to fly over, or refuse or issue special guidelines.
Managerially, it is futile to keep imagining alternatives as a routine.
This case seemed to be no different.
Talking of costs, will any airline adopt alternative routes without sufficient reason ?
I hope not !
Correct me if wrong.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Airways/Jetways are published and charted just like a highway map, along with all details for crew. Cost was not a factor here. The normal route was about 200 miles South and was the original filing. Change was made after wx enroute down South. Standard procedure, open jetway, all cool and standard, no biggie, just bad luck.
ualiah
Peter Crew 1
But the costs to the Airline,,,fuel, on time performance have to be taken into consideration, and unfortunately, sometimes, to some airlines, costs take precedence over lives….
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
At least the first time. Afterwards, the cost-benefit calculus probably changes.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Just in the for what it's worth dept.: This was not a no fly zone and while the original flight path was to the South about 200 miles, the plan was changed on account of wx to the South. The actual no fly zone that was issued was to the South of the crash site, down over Crimea and that region
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Tominarlington2
Tom Murray 2
Tass reports air traffic control over this region has been destroyed for weeks and control is to occur from Kiev. Not sure which "side" shot it down, although the separatists using a Buk seem most likely: but, was the plane flying over hazardous air space where it shouldn't have been?
skuttlerats
Jeffrey Babey 2
How very sad, we're so lucky (Those of us who do) to live in a area of the world where there isn't constant military conflict. May they all rest in peace.
cjd01
chris day 2
Well as we would have guessed the news media already have all the answe rsand are using scare tactic by approaching unsuspecting passengers like channel 7 did here in Perth Western Australia by shoving a microphone in there faces and asking them about there thoughts on the MH17 tradgedy.mmm what next?
aleoper
Al Roper 2
Some background, so readers can make up their own minds. Airlines choose which countries they fly over, to get from departure to destination. No one but the individual airline decides this, unless the airspace is fully closed to all airlines, like the no fly zone over Iraq, up until a few years ago. Every country charges quite a hefty over fly fee. Can be US$10,000 , per country over flown. Different countries charge different rates. Airlines weigh up the price of fuel, vs. the overfly fee, and choose a route. Generally the price of fuel wins out, and the shortest track is the cheapest. Individual airlines can do their own security assessment and choose not to file a flight plan over countries they do not wish to fly over. Lastly, pilots would have no say in the matter. It is up to management.
sgbelverta
sharon bias 2
Well, the pilots might want to bring up the issue of where they're forced to fly at the next labor negotiations. As a military pilot, being directed to fly into harms way is one thing. As a commercial pilot, being told to fly into an area with known and active surface to air missiles is quite another.

I'm all for having a profitable business. But getting innocent people killed to keep the costs down up is just wrong on so many levels.
rutkowst
Tom Yablonski 2
We should de-weaponize aviation the same way we globally condemn the use of land mines and chemical weapons. Considering missiles from satellites are banned by global convention, why are weaponized aircraft (or ground-air weaponry) acceptable? Flying is one of the coolest things we've ever figured out how to do. Shame its used this way, regardless of the political or nationalist motives.
Prada1025
Nina Aliprandi 2
I think most US airlines are passing that area to the north, to avoid Iran area.
gricel
leonardo caceres 2
annabaars
Johanna Baars-Oude Bekke 2
Why can't you grown up adults stop slamming and criticizing each other for the lack of knowledge in aviation. Why not sit back and reflect up what is happened and enjoy your life while you can. Am flying from Brisbane to Amsterdam on Tuesday and are going to fully enjoy the trip.
AirBalance
Jeff Lewis 1
Enjoy your trip, Johanna!

In slight defense of our carrying on, please realize that most of us are very respectful of and appreciative of the others for the knowledge we are trying to share and gain. Part of the more aggressive energy may flow from the frustration many of us feel, that we are not getting as much clear info from authorities as we should. We care a lot about aviation, and about our lives, and worry about where this world is headed. Personally, I worry (maybe too much) for my kids and the next generation.
preacher1
preacher1 2
I made a post about this on another site yesterday, and the crux of it was that all the hand wringing, anguish and what ought to be done is based on what would happen if such a thing happened in U.S. Air Space. You have to remember that while planes are flying elsewhere in the world, that our rules and regulations do not apply over there. These folks have not been thru all that we have over the years and are not nearly as developed or sophisticated in these things as we are. Complicating all this is the fact that it is a war zone with several different fiefdoms involved and this is just a casualty of that conflict, needing no special handling by their reasoning. Possibly, world attention may put enough pressure here to open things up some but it will probably be way too late, as the site has been contaminated and nearly 300 bodies laying in the hot sun decomposing.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Contaminated? As in they found all three engines, and two of them are Russian?
(apologies in advance)
barbaraleesmullen771
Barbara L. Smullen 2
heartbreaking...and terrifying...
Wayne47
Michael Townsley 2
Would infrared satellite imagery be able to pin point where the missile was launched? With all the military activity in the region I would expect that several nations have sophisticated surveillance capabilities focused on the area.
preacher1
preacher1 5
Well, the #1 key to the whole thing is going to be to get the wreck secured and an international investigative team in there to determine what happened. Everything seems to point to a missile taking it down, but it could be something else. If they determine that it was a missile then so be it and then the finger pointing can begin. Whether it was a missile or catastrophic failure of some kind, there were nearly 300 people that died and their families need the truth.
elkesley
Allan Hickman 1
Michael, if you had just shot down a CIVILIAN Aircraft or ANY aircraft for that matter would you stay in the area.. I think not, there might be a way to find out from the trajectory of the missile where it was fired from but the launcher will be LONG GONE.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
I suspect when you plan to launch from the middle of an elementary school playground, you usually have also planned your egress route to use immediately after launch. And you probably don't take the school kids with you. Push the button & run like ....
elkesley
Allan Hickman 1
Joel did you miss the last word... would that be run like ...PLUCK ?
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Not at all, just left it to the reader's imagination.
elkesley
Allan Hickman 1
Some people have very VIVID Imaginations,I for one, like to tell it as it is...!!
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
but, you didn't. And showed appropriate consideration for the boards implicit standards. Plus good.
stevooz
steve rogers 2
ValuJet had to change their name to air tran following two major crashes , this will no doubt impact Malaysians bottom line , they may have to go the same route .
MattU470
Matthew Unger 1
The ValuJet incident that had the aircraft crashing into the Everglades was due to a third-party contractor firm that ignored FAA regs regarding HAZMATs on commercial flights. The oxygen generators that caused the fire and crash were not supposed to be in the aircraft. But regardless, the name had to change due to public perception that ValuJet had somehow screwed up. I was living in SW Miami when that happened, and followed the story closely.

AirTran was a terrific airline, and I flew them a lot. They were my favored airline whenever I had to fly somewhere their system could take me. I loved the B717-200s they flew. I was dismayed when they sold to Southwest, but I also fly SWA regularly and will continue to do so.
Chejo27
Sergio Lopez 2
Really impressive and sad what happened to MH17, i hope at least true comes up soon. May all the victims rest in Peace.
hanna673
marty hanna 2
If i had been given a few BUK missiles i would not be firing them at random aircraft 33,000 feet up. I think i would probably save them for Ukrainian jets...but that's just me. Twa 800 was definitely shot down by the US navy in 1996.
antondewaard
ton de waard 1
If you realy followed the news you would know they were thinking they shot down a Ukraine Army carrier.
hanna673
marty hanna 1
tomfly
Thomas Woodward 1
Where did you get your info?
tomfly
Thomas Woodward 2
I'm talking about the TWA 800.
hanna673
marty hanna 1
Eye witnesses including an ex military officer.
ojonesworld
Isaiah Nuhu 2
Speechless my heart is with the family. The perpetrators must be brought to justice.
vainilla
Laura Vasconcellos 2
isardriver
isardriver 2
couple of additional stats here, apparently a number of amcits and dutch cuts on this flight - regardless, GOD rest their souls - my prayers with them and their families
http://news.msn.com/world/ukraine-says-rebels-shoot-down-malaysian-airliner-295-dead
elesoeur
Erik lesoeur 2
Pas besoin d'être un professionnel de l'aviation pour comprendre les dangers de survoler des pays en conflit lourdement armé... Incroyable d'en arriver là pour ouvrir les yeux des directions de compagnies aériennes et de gouvernement (la France conseille de ne pas survoler l'Ukraine... Il serait temps).
Et il n'y a pas que l'Ukraine...
Dwiehe
Dwiehe 2
someone is going to pay for this the international community should react in a strong fashion.
so sad for all the loss of live
MattU470
Matthew Unger 1
How so? Another war in the Crimea? Yeah that would help everyone out a lot. Perhaps even make Central Europe an even bigger warzone and danger to civil aviation. Please think before you suggest stuff like this.
sgbelverta
sharon bias 2
The nasty exchanges in some of the comments show just how quickly political tensions can rise. The problem is, if you put a weapon of any kind into an idiots hand, you can have a bad outcome, whether it's a surf-to-air missile, an AK47, or a laser light directed at a pilots eyes. I'm not a "ban everything" person nor am I a fan of Big Brother. But we need to keep an eye on items that can cause great bodily harm. I live next to an airport. Would I kill a person using a laser light near the runway? No. Would I report them to the local police? Yes. Things get dicey when it's the local police or military causing the problem, but that's when we do need a Big Brother.

Lessons will be learned from this. Airlines will be much more careful about flying over area's with known military conflicts. Hopefully passengers will speak up if their flight takes them near areas of military conflicts. Nothing like Twitter to tell the world that your plane flew over the Gaza Strip. Can you say "company stock tanking"? With some airlines now allowing Internet access while in flight, imagine looking at FlightAware while you're in the air. You'll know when you're flying in a bad area.

[This poster has been suspended.]

StarFlyr
StarFlyr 2
I read that a route around the area would have burned $1500 more of fuel. In hindsight, a bargain. Still, an open airway is an open airway. I also read that some idiot on the ground thought he was shooting down a military flight. Bad business giving idiots this kind of hardware. Also read that Iran is supplying the Gaza idiots with their missiles...

And so it goes...
sirsunlight911
阳光 朱 2
Have the authority got a rule that aircrafts should not be allowed to enter an area that under warfare? Aircrafts been shot down from several days ago but draw no attention, I think it's a quite serious bug.
aleoper
Al Roper 2
Qantas assessed Ukraine as a security risk months ago. Some Dubai-London flights occasionally were routed over Ukraine, before then, but ceased at that time. Just because many airlines were also still using this route, is not a valid excuse. A number of planes have been shot down over the past month, at lower altitudes. How much of a red flag do these airlines need?
sgbelverta
sharon bias 2
The black boxes will probably tell the tale, but who in their right mind would go into a war zone (and it is a war zone) to retrieve them? Let's hope Boeing decides not to endanger American lives at this time to research the crash. Hopefully Malaysian Airlines learned from their recent tragedy to handle this one better. I know the Ukraine owes Russia a lot of money, but these two countries need to rein in their thugs.
RRKen
Kenneth Schmidt 3
Word from BBC is that Pro-Russians have the black boxes and have sent them to Moscow.
sgbelverta
sharon bias 3
Well, since the Russians have had a number of aircraft go down in the last 20 years, they should be very experienced at reading the data. We just have to worry that they don't manipulate the data.
Av8nut
Michael Fuquay 2
I'm not sure retreiving the black boxes are all that important. Getting those are only pertinant, if there are questions of the flight and aircraft itself.
preacher1
preacher1 0
Well, see my post below. Everybody is assuming missle but there was no smoke trail down
SWA4175
John Gerken 2
A missile doesn't have to catch the plane of fire to bring it down. Most missiles now don't have explosive warheads. They just fire a crap load of shrapnel in the direction of the target just before impact to damage vital systems or components of the aircraft. Damage and aileron or the vertical stabilizer so it can't maintain stable flight and it's coming down.
preacher1
preacher1 3
This is true. This is gonna be a real he said she said before it's over with, and who is going to handle it as well, the boxes notwithstanding. Regardless of who did what, there are a whole bunch of dead folks on there right now and that ain't good.
yr2012
matt jensen 1
In days past they were heat-seeking - which means when fired would go towards the highest heat levels - engine exhaust
rarebear14
Dolf Brouwers 1
There are still heat seekers ! But they are fired from fighter planes, SAM's use radar painting and usually have proximity fuses. They explode from a short distance and even one piece of shrapnel kan take out a plane, a tiny hole in the fuselage causes rapid depressurazation and the pressure cabin wil explode...
Let us hope and pray the the souls on biard were killed instantly......
skycrane415
duke fawcett 2
Except if it just clipped it, and made it unflyable. Reports have the bodies largely intact, including a kid with an IPhone clutched in his hand. I guarantee you, there is footage from inside the plane.

Also Putin's propaganda arm RT, said they they targeted HIS plane, lol, and hit the wrong plane. Don't believe that for a second...
elkesley
Allan Hickman 1
IF it had have been Putins aircraft, sad as it would have been it would have saved a LOT of problems, he is getting close to Gaddafi and Saddam Hussein in his "POPULARITY"
JerrySteinberg
Jerry Steinberg 2
UPDATE: Ukraine is saying that separatist rebels are removing evidence from crash site - and that Russia is responsible for the downing of the flight by providing the missile

http://www.frequentbusinesstraveler.com/2014/07/ukraine-russia-responsible-for-downing-of-flight-17-rebels-removing-evidence/
avkluki
Anton K 1
Ukraine killed hundreds of own peaceful citizens, bombing them with artillery last couple of months. They never told the truth all these months, trying to hide that's really happening in Donetsk and Lugansk. Obviously they will say everything needed to put the blaim on separatists. You need to hear some other sources to know the truth, not ukrainian officials.
elkesley
Allan Hickman 2
IF it is placed at Putins doorstep, what will the rest of the "FREE" World decide to do about it.... NOTHING, just like the support the Israelis are getting against Hamas.
preacher1
preacher1 3
What I cannot understand the Israel/Mideast thing. Israel has bent over backwards to have peace with it's neighbors. Why can't they just leave them alone. I wonder how many empty cockpits there will be out there at the rapture. That ties this post to aviation.
trickii1
rob jones 1
This is a situation of compromise of all parties which is unstable both politically, ideologically, and practically.The zone has been in conflict for hundreds of years but all sides believe that they will not give up their historic beliefs to gain lasting settlement.
hanna673
marty hanna 0
Israel relishes the murder and abuse of children, and will pay a heavy price for that inhumanity.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Your perspective is 'interesting' to say the least.
elkesley
Allan Hickman 1
IF you stand behind women and children to shoot at me do you think that will prevent me from shooting back...Your DREAMING..Hamas and ALL the despots in the Arab World hold OTHER peoples lives as worth NOTHING, do Hamas make any effort to stop Israeli Civilians getting injured? a Bomb or Rocket does NOT differentiate between women and KIDS....if you think it does your a PLONKER.Its only a very small minority that belong to Hamas... the majority of Palestinians DO NOT.. yet they are the ones that are suffering, I suppose you agree that's right.. I'm WELL impressed.
rarebear14
Dolf Brouwers 1
@Allan...exactly right !! politics is destroying everything we care for !
fernyj
John Fernyhough 4
This was an act of mass murder and should be treated as such.Putin still lives with the Soviet mentality.
Deepest sympathy for those who have had their lives stolen and their suffering families and friends.
preacher1
preacher1 5
Well, hand it to the Malaysians to try and save money by going direct or close, rather than avoid a war zone, especially after a couple of military planes were shot down this week.. FAA put the prohibition on U.S. Flag carriers from flying it a couple of months ago. Nobody is claiming responsibility of shooting it down. That said, remember KAL 007. It took a bit for Russia to finally come clean over it and then only after radar and radio was able to point a finger.
spatr
spatr 8
Actually, looking at the past few days of similar flights, all airlines have been flying routes right over the top of Ukraine.
preacher1
preacher1 3
Well, my apologies to MAS. Their normal flight path was 200 miles further South. They were up there due to wx. It was not restricted airspace. There were 26 other planes in same territory. All scattered and most airlines are now totally avoiding the area.
chrisswr
chrisswr 2
The dispatcher who created the flight plan - "route 1 - we've done it a million times", out-cha go, baby! While the NOTAM was not strictly peaking applicable, common sense might have been in order, even for such an untrained beginner. MH must be placed on the "non-EU flight list" (as GARUDA has been) for failing to have a procedure in place for this item, just as much as failing to have a procedure in place on how to inform the traveling public. Shame on Malaysia Airlines!
MattU470
Matthew Unger 1
KAL 007 was different. The MiG-25 pilot went up, positively identified the B747 as a civilian airliner, and after receiving the order, shot it down with an air-to-air missile.
andeyk
Andey Kurniawan -8
shame on you. 1 Timothy 1:4 you just make yourself foolish as the news is slowly developing. stop speculating for it bring you no good. other planes have scrambled change of flight plans and diversions
CaptainFreedom
CaptainFreedom 4
It's early, but the post is here for people to engage in speculation and theorizing. You're welcome to leave if you can't handle this.
AJACOBS2
Alan Jacobson 3
"Where oh where can the launcher be?.. On it's way to Russia or at the bottom of the sea". Each launcher has it's own footprint or radar signature. Our anti-ballistic system can pinpoint a launch of almost any size and certainly a myriad of satellites and bots have been watching that area very closely. There is evidence I'm convinced but being handled very delicately now.
It's the old throw the gun in the ocean after the shooting. The launcher is the key and the answer to all questions.
And when it's all over, the blood still lies on Putins hands... this time it won't wash away....
myrisa06
Vladimir Ivanov -5
Prosecutor General of Ukraine Vitaly Yarema said that separatists DNR and LNR no Ukrainian anti-aircraft missile systems "Buk" and C-300. "After he was hit by a passenger plane, the military reported to the President that the terrorists have our systems" Buk "and C-300 - said the prosecutor general. - Capture those weapons was not." Once these air defense systems could knock masamolet.

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

crowncrow
Aleksander Majewski Trefall 2
Oh haven't you heard? According to UN Ukraine has no official borders and technically still belongs to Russia :-)

http://voiceofrussia.com/2014_04_08/Ukrainian-government-in-Kiev-has-revealed-itself-to-be-capable-of-preposterous-lies-political-analyst-7653/

Besides, I don't trust politicians and media telling the truth in any country, do you? Of course, Putin and Duma are the only honest ones and always tell the truth about such things...
myrisa06
Vladimir Ivanov 2
I think both in Russia and in the United States and any other country in the world of politics never say the whole truth! I was tired of hearing that there is always blame Russia! In this case, the truth, we may never know, because it would be terrible!
crowncrow
Aleksander Majewski Trefall 1
I agree with you there but just like the US is responsible for what's happening in Iraq today, you cannot deny that the political choice, whether right or wrong, to annex Crimea has escalated this conflict giving more confidence to the eastern separatists in Ukraine. In the end it doesn't matter who shot. The biggest responsibility falls on the local "superpower" that made those aggressive moves. Maybe it was an accident maybe done by purpose by the Ukrainians to blame Russia? Its old guerrilla tactics everywhere. Just like Hamas is doing: provoke Israel and then hiding amongst the civilians to create lots of innocent casualties to win the "PR war". No matter what in both cases the blame falls on the stronger, bigger party here. Israel is choosing to attack those populated areas and kill innocents "because they have the right to defend themselves" and Putin chose to support the separatists in Crimea and other areas "to protect the rights of Russian natives there" end of story. Most of that innocent blood is on their hands...
rvern36th
Rendy Vernon 3
The Ukraine does not have the hardware capable of downing an aircraft 32,000 ft. This will ultimately fall back on Russia once investigators examine every inch of that debris. Sad event today......Sad
TTroll
TTroll 2
They have C200 and Buk. See my comment above.
Av8nut
Michael Fuquay 3
The link below speaks of these terrorists claiming they downed a AN-26 of the Ukrainian Air Force.

Could it be that Malaysia 17 was just in the wrong place at the wrong time?


http://en.censor.net.ua/photo_news/294234/russian_terrorist_strelok_claims_responsibility_for_downed_boeing_with_300_passengers_on_board_photo
Tridentin
Tridentin 4
Strelkov never posts in this blog cited below as "terrorists" claiming shooting down a plane". This is one of the public blogs by self defense forces. They already explained they it originally posted video shot by civilian witnesses from the village in the vicinity of the crash thinking it was another Ukrainian military cargo plane shot down by their self defence forces when in fact what they saw was the Boing falling from the sky. I don't think these people have anything to hide.
You can read it following the link below in the same blog, use google to translate.

I would just add that they don't have the antiaircraft capability to reach the altitude of 8100m. You need Buk or SS-300 to do that and BBC of course already insinuated that "Buk is Russian" instead of "Russian made" and of course failed to mention that Ukrainian army has plenty of Buks and that it recently deployed several Buk units near Donetzk which puts them on the flight path of the 777.

http://m.vk.com/strelkov_info#post-57424472_7205
tbpera
Tom Pera 4
Multiple Choice - Who's to blame for the shoot down?
A- Idiots who possess sophisticated missile system (Russian Separatists)
B- The lunatic that gave them the systems (Putin)
C- The air controller that suggested/approved/allowed the plane to fly over disputed territory
D- The pilot (responsible for the safety of passengers and crew) that chose to fly over a war zone
E- all of the above
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
If you are going to list the players in the set, you had better shift to the cyrillic alphabet, or maybe mandarin ideographs- 26 will be too few.
Sorry about that.
latteju
latteju 2
breakfastmeat
frankie jones -1
Nothing to do with this story.
trakais
Normunds Rustanovics 1
Yes it has. The russians thought they were shooting at the AN26, but instead, it was the Boeing.
artems
Artem Salpagarov -1
No it hasn't. An-26 was indeed shot down the same day.
DAL498
DAL498 1
KevinBrown
Kevin Brown -4
There is NO evidence that Putin gave the separatists the missile system. It is claimed that separatists seized Ukrainian SAM systems. How was that possible? Was this a false-flag operation? We can say that this would NEVER have happened but for the civil war in the Ukraine. Who fomented that civil war? It wasn't Putin!

photo of a BUK launcher supposedly taken in a town 75k E of Donetsk:


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bswxl1_IIAEyI8S.jpg
Changyuraptor
Changyuraptor 1
Or add F. The intermediaries funding the war and therefore the weapons systems that get into the hands of A, whether or not it was ordered to be passed on by B but more than likely it was Russian mercenaries who sold or passed on military hardware obtained from the Russian troops stationed near the border. In fact, C had issued a warning to pilots to fly above 31,000 feet and this fight flew at 33,000 feet. Clearly, even that height is not sufficient and was a mistake, best to avoid the region at any height unless you were flying in an old U2 plane per se. However, its the pilots (D) that set the flight path that in the end are accountable - why did they gamble with the lives of their passengers and crew and fly over the region that was currently in ongoing battle between Government forces and the Russian Separatists? - when they could more easily just fly over either Russian territory, or further south closer to Crimea, as many previous and subsequent flights were.
chrisswr
chrisswr 2
Add G: Malaysian Airlines Flight Operations and Dispatch Department, where the "rookie" Dispatcher on duty who planned the flight either doesn't know geography/political tension areas, didn't particularly worry about an existing NOTAM (albeit the airspace not formally "closed" above the area under NOTAM), or, as usual was under time pressure, hit "route 1", and pressed the button "Out-cha go, baby, we've done it a million times!"
artems
Artem Salpagarov 0
Just wanted to point out, that it's not yet clear who did that and why. Based on what facts you came to conclusion that the separatists are to blame for?

And by the way:
1. Even if it was shot down using Buk by separatists, this system was captured from Ukrainian military base. No need for B, though.
2. It's kind of difficult to use Buk for this since it has very limited range for that altitude.
3. Ukrainians have already shot down a passenger jet using S-200 once, why not to make the same mistake twice? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812
4. I would add F: a couple of planes and helicopters is shot down every week in that area. News media who don't cover these events are responsible too, because pilots apparently didn't know about all the threats out there.

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

tbpera
Tom Pera 2
really? ....the US and EU are to blame?
jperrin
jperrin 4
Kevin, blaming the US and EU is about as absurd as blaming Ronald Reagan for ending the Cold War which resulted in the breakup of the USSR and the formation of Russian and Ukraine. Please post your political views somewhere else.
KevinBrown
Kevin Brown -2
It is impossible to discuss this story without discussing politics. This disaster is a direct result of the civil war in the Ukraine. There is no question that a Ukrainian SAM system shot down this airliner. It was shot down too far from the Russian border to have been shot down with a Russian SAM system. The only question that remains is did separatists shoot down the a/c with BUK SAM systems they captured from the Ukraine military OR did the Ukranian military shoot down the a/c thinking it was a Russian a/c OR as a false-flag operation. At this point no reason to believe that Putin ordered the jet shot down. For what purpose?
preacher1
preacher1 2
Kevin: while everyone is talking that point is that there is not a firmity yet that a missle brought it down. One lone analyst made a good point a while ago, in that there was not any smoke trail that followed it down as there would have been if it were on fire from altitude; all the smoke was from the impact. It will all be interesting.
bbabis
Bill Babis 2
There was a smoke trail if you look closely. It was not easy to see. Obviously the tanks were not compromised. The toilet paper or paper towel rolls that came down through the smoke later show that the cabin clearly broke apart.
DerekCooks
Derek Thomas 2
Preacher, are you suggesting that we give it time to find out what actually happened, rather than have all the fun of speculating and accusing and pointing fingers now? You are no fun! Hehehe...
isardriver
isardriver 1
AJACOBS2
Alan Jacobson 3
This is not good...
A great tragedy has taken place and already those suffering from cranial-rectal dyslexia have risen from the landfill with all kinds of assumptions, political and conspiratorial stupidity. I thought this site was about Aviation, obviously a few demented shirt sighted individuals use any forum they can drag their tails t0.

Let those who are in the know investigate, and find the answers. Let those who have lost someone hear words of praise and healing, not irresponsible political rhetoric. , MH17 from Amsterdam is a connection flight to Kuala Lumpur, a gateway to much of that area so there will be many citizens of many countries involved.

Those who see conspiracy as a way of their mindset will note today is close to the anniversary of TWA Flight 800 and that the plane was a 777 and it belonged to Malaysian Airlines.
Av8nut
Michael Fuquay 2
According to the source the route of the Malaysian plane ran close to Ukrainian military transport IL-76, which was transporting relief goods to the blocked Ukrainian troops. A source in the Defense Ministry believes that the Russian defense gave an order on shooting down the Ukrainian aircraft but due to an error the missile hit a civilian airplane.


Source: http://en.censor.net.ua/n294232 Source: http://en.censor.net.ua/n294232

http://en.censor.net.ua/news/294232/passenger_boeing_777_down_by_terrorists_its_route_ran_near_ukrainian_il76_source
JerrySteinberg
Jerry Steinberg 2
More news including plane was a 777 and Ukraine president is launching an immediate investigation. My thoughts and prayers with the families of these passengers.

http://www.frequentbusinesstraveler.com/2014/07/malaysia-passenger-jet-crashes-in-ukraine-295-dead/
trickii1
rob jones 2
This appears to be a casualty of Putin war mongering.The lessons to be learned are clear giving untrained personnel advanced weapons can have unintended repercussions and would result in the same sad outcomes in Syria too.Perhaps Putin did not realize that his own forces would confound his plans to rebuild the failed soviet state.

Expect Putin to distance himself from this conflict and encourage the rebels to sue for peace to save Putins face. The airline industry should really be more active in understanding conflict areas and avoid them even under immense commercial pressures experienced by airlines.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Sad part is, over the top of Afghanistan is one of the busiest air corridors in the world
Rosaliagarcia
Rosalia Da Garcia 2
This is absolutely not acceptable. The days of Pan Am and Korean Air should be like long gone and in this day and age one cannot claim that they mistook the plane for a military cargo plane.
mommybear55
Mary Candlish 2
Sjoerd Balfoort STOP being negative, instead turn it around and explain why and what so we can all be educated. I have two sons that are pilots for airlines and they don't talk like that, they instead educated and give valid reasons why. There is enough negative out here can you help turn that around ? Thanks Mary
jamiecity
一帆 刘 2
doriengray
Steve Barrett 2
Atrocious!!! when will people wake up to Puttins destabilization, land and money grab in Europe to stop in his eyes "only" the EU grab???People vote to join the EU, Puttin uses military and bribes to force Russia on to people who are sadly mislead by a few who will profit when the deliver large chunks of Ukraine to Russia. Putin can only be described as a modern terrorist using money, arms to subjugate territory through other unscrupulous people.
geobo
Geo Bo 1
You are not right. You are too far away to know the truth. Internet and on television events were distorted.
AlfreMaran
Alfre Maran 1
Non è possibile ma chi sono questi pazzi, bisogna isolare questo paese non atterrare più per per un anno nei loro aeroporti!!
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
the conspiracy theorists are going to love you...
lsharpe69
lsharpe69 1
Peace on Earth. Good will toward men. I'm sickened by what I see and worse, I believe my Nation played a role in all of it. The policies once written in stone need to be erased and rewritten. We are living in a new world and our policies have done little to keep up with the rapid change. We need change and not based on selfish greed. We need agreement instead of dead-locked divide in the USA to make this happen. We are falling apart in my view. The old way of thinking is making us a weaker nation.
dickfix
Richard Ruscoe 1
@ Joel Wiley
Thank you Joel, for your good wishes.
I hope to get more proficient at this as time passes (before I do).
Take care...
yr2012
matt jensen 1
Also heard a Russian cargo jet went down on Monday of this week
narit01
Ian Narita 1
I was looking at jhon Lewis's comments from a few days ago. Specifically at the screen shot of the parallel flights. When I looked closely at those flights one stood out. EVA88 was filed for a lower speed then the other flights. Could ATC have been trying to sort out the flights.
artems
Artem Salpagarov 1
So, here we go. Russian Ministry of Defence had a briefing today. Main points (and questions to Ukraine Army & US officials):

1. There is a satellite photo with Ukrainian military site on it with a set of Ukrainian Buks before July, 17. Then a photo of the same site with 2 Buks absent on July, 17. Then a photo of a place ~15 kilometers from crash site controlled by Ukrainian Army with two Buks on morning of July, 17. The question is why they moved it.
2. On July, 15 there where 7 operational Buk's radars detected, then 8 radars, then 9 radars on July, 17. After crash, operational radar count declined to 2-3. The question is why Buks were operational since rebels do not have planes.
3. Ukrainian fighter jet was detected near the crash site by ATC in the moment of crash. It climbed up from altitude below 5000m (it cannot be detected below 5k with ATC radars) to unknown height and flew over the crash site for 4 minutes. The question is what it was doing there.
4. US satellite designed to detect missile launches was over crash site from 17:09(?) to 17:21. Question is why photos US has haven't been published yet.
5. Video posted online with Buk allegedly being transported from rebels to Russia was fake because it was different city on the video - not Krasnodon, but Krasnoarmeysk which is controlled by Ukrainian Army since May, 11. Again, why it's being transported, where is absent missile(s)?

If you're fine with *terrible* English translation, here is the video: http://www.vesti.ru/only_video.html?vid=610598.
Lee1209
JOhn LEe 1
Does anyone know if the missile has to be tampered with so that it doesn't hit a civilian aircraft as I have heard. The "safety" has to be disabled.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
We're talking about a Russian launch system. I doubt anyone in this forum has been trained to it, but you never know. I'm told that one radar system is for launch and a second is activated for guidance, but I don't know for sure.
artems
Artem Salpagarov 1
Buk has several trucks: one with spare rockets, another with control unit, one for launches with a small radar (less range, less altitude: up to 6000 meters), one with bigger radar, so called "Kupol" (Dome) system.

As for John's question - no, it just doesn't make sense. Nobody should be flying over a war zone. Launch systems do have friendly fire detection, which works pretty much like "I'm friend, do not shoot", but anyone else is considered to be an enemy.
preacher1
preacher1 1
I don't know for sure but I figure it would all be in TARGET AQUISITION. The missile doesn't know the difference
Lee1209
JOhn LEe 1
Totally Agee We keep believeing that every one thinks like us
Dictators don't care about popularity nor how much their people suffer
Russia was the most dangerous when it was the poorest Military strength
Is all Putin fears
elkesley
Allan Hickman 1
All this rubbish I hear about bringing Putin to account for what has happened over the Ukraine,various Government heads wanting to pose sanctions against Russia, do we honestly think that Putin gives a rats ass about the West, he didn't when he was head of the KGB, why should he now, and it would not be any hardship for Putin, only another rod on the back of the Russian population, and there's more chance of a snowball staying frozen in a furnace than the people of the Confederate States of Russia doing anything to remove him.Who has jumped to the defence or assistance of Israel against Hamas who are quiet prepared to fire rockets from behind the human shields of the Civilians in Gaza, no they are a REAL BRAVE LOT.My heart goes out to the relatives of the dead of MH17, but I am afraid there will be little in the way of retribution against the perpetrators of the shooting down of the aircraft.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Well said. Gaza is a whole 'nuther story.
avkluki
Anton K 1
I'm a newbie on the site. Can anybody explain why there is no info for last hour of the flight in MH17 tracklog ? The penultimate point is 12:11 and the last point is 13:19. So there is a gap in more than 1 hour just before the crash.

I have seen disclaimer that in this region can be a gaps in information, but if you check other dates for the same flight - there is no one such gap in this region in the past. Does this fact look suspicious, no?
manifa01
Mario Farias 1
Acatei a resposta do Ole, com certeza. Sorry, I do not write good in English.
haggypet
Carlos Cipolina 1
Que decir solamente terrible
Colgor8
Jhon Lewis 1
I am sorry I am really young and don't understand this well enough, is this going to lead to war?
AONeal79
AONeal79 4
No need to apologize. It's a good question. Some would say there's already a war in that area. Mostly though, time will tell.
yr2012
matt jensen -1
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
I wonder what or how much of safe air space/corridor is available to fly over ?
kindly check out the following , published in the context of shooting down the MH17 -

http://epaperbeta.timesofindia.com/Gallery.aspx?id=20_07_2014_022_005_007&type=P&artUrl=Russia-rebels-destroying-proof-at-crash-site-Kiev-20072014022005&eid=31808
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Well, from the map it appears that the warmer climates are, so to speak, warmer that way.
With changing climate and the natural resources in the higher latitudes we can expect the 'warmer' to spread.
Keonikamakana
Keonikamakana 1
The fate of MH 17 is a human tragedy. All are culpable. There are collateral fatalities. Nothing is
is to be excused. Nothing like this must happen again. Politics are culpable. Nationalism is at fault also. Innocents are killed at governmental whim, within and without territories. No one takes any blame. Even from the most atheistic point of view, we are supposed to be "Homo sapiens" I doubt it. Even less, homo rationalis. At present, this is a global issue.
Doobs
Dee Lowry 1
Exactly Chis. Thank you for that.
cjd01
chris day 1
Yes so true.i guess i like to remain focused and not deviate off course.no pun intended.after all part of my job as an emergency worker is to remain focused on the incident at hand.
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
God rest the souls and console the families of all onboard. It's pretty clear what happened. It's left to determine who did it. I agree with preacher in questioning why the plane was there.
cjd01
chris day 1
Thanks Dee.ha ha.Western Australias got its own problems though.A certain missing aircraft.MH370 you might be familiar with.Everything has gone quiet here.Heard nothing on the news,nothing in the papers and nothing new from the authorities.????.Other than that,apparently Perth has the distinction for being the "safest" Westernised Capital city in the world.Probably the isolation helps.no conflicts or terrorist activity.
Doobs
Dee Lowry 1
Chis- You are so right! Let's leave
cjd01
chris day 1
Exactly right and thats my point and yes without the training,expertise and technology to identify the aircraft,for all they care they could have been firing at a flock of birds.and Martha please dont bring up the Palestinian conflict on this forum.Im sure theres other sites for that.If the Palestinians want to support a terorist organisation,they'll expect retribution.no bleeters please.
Doobs
Dee Lowry 1
Chris- This a forum for expression. One has the option to agree or not.
Everyone has their own opinions and you can learn from it or not. It's all about how you perceive the post.
Doobs
Dee Lowry 1
Chris- You're not looking at sophisticated...so called military people. But they have sophisticated weapons which they don't have a clue how to operate except to push a button. No Commercial airline should have had a flight plan over Ukraine airspace. I, personally , filing a flight plan would have avoided that area all together. It's just common sense.
cjd01
chris day 1
Then regardless of who shot the plane down,lets track down the person or people who made this catastrophic decision.No one walks through a mine field without first checking to see if its safe.you dont test a guillitine by putting your own head in it.Yes some one pulled the trigger but who stood you in front ot the gun????
Doobs
Dee Lowry 1
cjd01
chris day 1
No one has asked a simple question.Why would anyone with common sense fly or allow any type of unarmed civilian aircraft to fly over a warzone?.
Answers please not speculation or theorising.
Doobs
Dee Lowry 1
FA- We have a problem. Everyone is going ballistic! The forum is ready to explode! Help!!
dmnews
Drew Myers 1
Unless this is a false flag to try to draw in foreign military to help out with this civil war, it seems that it's not in anyone's benefit to shoot this plane down. Maybe these were just some trigger happy militants who thought they were shooting at a military transport plane.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Let's hope it was just trigger-happy loose cannons. The alternative is disturbing.
But then again, there were those 'Polish' troops who attacked the German radio station in September 1939....
boeing24u
Bryan Evans 1
Putin should be put on trial for criminal murder
isardriver
isardriver 1
sorry - auto spell is on - that is "dutch cits", not cuts
Cayman2014
David Guilfoyle 1
Av8nut
Michael Fuquay 1
If there wasn't any animosity between Malaysia and Russia or Ukraine, there will be now.
artems
Artem Salpagarov 1
Video from crash point (viewer discretion is advised):
http://lifenews.ru/news/136823
zanehuston
Zane Huston 1
huby60
Hubert Thomas 1
My sympathies to a all who lost family and friends. Many years ago (in the early 80s) I worked for the local handling agent of Condor in Colombo. One of the documents which we had to provide the Captain was "NOTAM". It provided information about war exercises and potential hazards along the flights planned route and the difference in altitude or deviations which he had to take. I hope this information is still available and given to all the Captains and flight planners. I wonder if all the information provided will be sufficient for the safety of any aircraft as the speed and range of the Buk missile seems to far greater than the speed and altitude of commercial aircrafts. I believe God is our safety and wisdom.
ualiah
Peter Crew 1
RIP passengers and crew of MH17
ncw24
nichole Wilson 1
Does anyone know where I can find international no-fly zones? Trying to see what the area's restricted airspace looks like?
tskubal
Thomas Skubal 1
The interesting thing I see is that this particular flight traveled further North when crossing over the Ukraine border, compared to the previous 10 flights.
AirBalance
Jeff Lewis 1
...yes, and ATC needs to speak up about how and why that happened. Could be weather related, but whatever the reason, the Public needs to know. And all of the evidence is in preserved ATC data files (audio and radar).
preacher1
preacher1 1
It was told early yesterday that it was on account of bad wx to the South.
AirBalance
Jeff Lewis 1
You and others may have heard that, but someone in aviation, maybe even at the ICAO level, needs to step in front of a camera and post a solid briefing for the world. Tell us what happened that they DO KNOW, such as the filed route/altitude plan, the weather and airspace briefing considered when creating that plan, and the audio/radar data for the last hour plus of the flight, while in Ukraine airspace. For crying out loud: we have all these aviation authorities playing hide-and-seek with even the most fundamental data.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
I too would be interested in that information. However, a news conference presenting that information would accomplish precisely what?

I would hope that journalists somewhere are digging for that information and publish it soon.
sgbelverta
sharon bias 0
Considering this accident was broadcast world wide by video within minutes of it occurring, weather reports might be a diversion. The weather, based on the video's broadcast, seems hazy, but no active rain or thunder heads. Unless you're in a canyon, most folks can see bad weather a 100 miles away. And at 30,000 feet, it's got to be really bad weather to change course. It's often the turbulence that can't be seen that will cause pilots to ask for a change in course. I'd be most interested in interviewing pilots who were recently in the area what kind of weather they encountered. Remember, we have some of the best weather satellites in the world, and we still send in the Hurricane Hunters to check out bad weather.
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
I'm not a pilot but
1. The weather (wx) report was in hand prior to takeoff.
2. The route could have been avoiding weather hundreds of miles away on another route
3. It would be good data to see what the wx briefing was.
None of that information is dependent on info from the conflict area.
mdholmes
mark holmes 0
Check again....FA FLIGHT RECORDS FOR THIS FLIGHT IN DAYS LEADING UP TO THE 17th have been altered.
See the 14th for example:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140714/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK

WHAT'S GOING ON HERE, FLIGHTAWARE.COM???
zainulp
Sainulabid Pothangodan 1
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 shot down

More than four months after the mysterious crash of Flight MH370, another Malaysian flight MH17 from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur has been shot down over Ukraine.

http://www.aviationanalysis.net/2014/07/malaysian-airlines-mh17-flight-shot-down.html?m=0
yapur8
jose yapur 1
dios bendigas a cada ser de ese vuelo , loe errores humanos que a veces se comete no tiene perdon de dios
makinson
Alex Makinson 1
God bless to everyone on board, especially the West Australians, my home state. RIP
gricel
leonardo caceres 1
That will havevto do the religion with this horrendous accident ??
Keonikamakana
Keonikamakana 1
What a tragedy for the families and loved ones of all the passengers and crew. They are not alone in their grief and pain. We have all lost members of our family in this disaster. Rest and peace to those who have perished; love and prayerful support to those who remain. God have mercy on us all.

[This poster has been suspended.]

ab7im
Nolan Bishop 5
HerkMcGraw
Herk McGraw 3
I beg to differ with you Arne. God gave us a mind of our own to make our own decisions. If we make the wrong ones we have to own them. The Hebrew Bible is a history of Judaism not a way of life for today. Perhaps a read of "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People."
flw45tn
Frank Weber 1
You are living in Disneyland.
AirBalance
Jeff Lewis 1
You sir are excessively offensive. Please rein it in.
preacher1
preacher1 1
No need for me to say much. The others below have said it all. You need to rethink some of your comments.
annabaars
Johanna Baars-Oude Bekke 1
This mass murder can never be justified!!!!!!!

Heartbreaking.....
hanna673
marty hanna 1
And a Ukraine army carrier flying out of Ukraine to where?
gabryel321
gabryel321 medalha 1
As minhas condulensias as familia dos passageiros oremos pelas pessoas que morrerão sem. Ter culpa do que passa neste mundo
fyc199777
fyc199777 1
No more to say.Rest in peace
ikiyasui
Rod Williams 1
Why would an airline even fly over a conflict zone ?
avihais
Martin Haisman 1
The following major airlines have confirmed they are avoiding Ukraine airspace:
- Lufthansa
- KLM
- Aeroflot
- Virgin Airlines
- Delta
- Air France
- British Airways

Many countries NOTAMS advise to check current "threats" and utilise Ukraine FIR. Then there are cash strapped airlines taking the most cost effective route.
OleEskildsen
Ole Eskildsen 2
Really?
Are those airlines flying a different track now AFTER this event or BEFORE?

This site is called FlightAware!
So, how about we get aware before we start to comment?

Put KLM flight 809, which is also from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, into FlightAware and look at the track it took on the 15th of July, 1-2 days before the shoot down.
What do you see?
KLM was making a track which appears to be only some miles from the illfated MH17's track.
So, MH wasn't doing anything the others weren't doing.

Please make sure of your facts before commenting.
distar97
Dennis Harper 1
This tragedy really troubles me. A few days earlier (14 July)I was thinking about a friends frequent trips to Lahore, Pakistan. I wondered about precisely what route is typically taken. My concerns were along the lines of what airports are along the route if a mechanical failure or some other event arises that would require a quick landing.

I was shocked to see not only PIA but many major carriers were taking a line directly over eastern Ukraine, a known hot zone. I knew there were air defense batteries in the area that are hot, meaning they've been actively targeting and firing at opposing force aircraft.

Why on earth are all these carriers flying here?? I could see a line of flights, 10 an hour or more when I checked on the 14th.

If it bothered me, it must have bothered the pilots actually flying the route. I understand the FAA informed US flag carriers to not take the route. But why would others not follow our lead? Was there company pressure due to financial concerns or was it a more like 'Stop worrying, it's not a big deal'? How vocal were pilots about the route? I'm certain they had misgivings. I thought this while watching the live tracking.
hecaes
Hernan Caceres 1
Es una verdadera pena que haya pasado esta desgracia! Es un ataque contra la humanidad. Basta de guerras y conflictos absurdos por Religiones y Politica! Basta
fnmornik
Nikolai Morozov 1
It is absolutely impossible that untrained person can activate SAM system, not saying actually downing the plane at 33Kft cruising 500knt. Moreover, each system have multiple levels of interlocks to avoid unsanctioned launch. It should be military guys, probably more than one, with proper training, who also have all keys and codes to commit this act.
guypichon
Guy Pichon 1
Malaysian airlines should not be accused of anything... More than 400 planes flew nearby tha day... Good question: Is it normal that some untrained para military "troupes" can dispose over high tech SAM missiles?
stevooz
steve rogers 1
sick world we live in , very sad .
planeexpert
Trey Tinsley 1
thats so sad. y would they do that!?!?!
planeexpert
Trey Tinsley 1
2nd malaysian flt crashed. as far as we know (this year)
Celsooslec
Celso Toloto 1
Seria esta a precisão cirúrgica dos armamentos modernos? Lamentável!
raleedy
ALLAN LEEDY 1
Rot. This was standard routing for all airlines until this happened. Malaysia Airline is no more responsible than you are.
TTroll
TTroll 1
It's not the first time - just remember Siberia TU154 at the early 2000.
Seems like Ukraine can't control their weapons.
Don't recommend anyone fly above their territory.
Carioca
Tomer Ariav 1
Recently I flew to London through Kiev. Flying over Ukraine was my only preocupation as they did the same, some years ago, with another passanger jet.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Long ago aviation history was made with words like ' A small step of man, and a giant leap for the mankind'.
Was this the kind in mind of the person making that historical statement ?
No, thousand times NO .
Yet this is where some of the mankind have stooped to !
The wrongdoers must be identified and hunted down the stone age way ! Including those who have been assisting and aiding such animals.
Punishment is a must. Irrespective of the nations, leaders, number of people involved. Directly or vicariously.
Who should punish ? The Dutch ofcourse, with FULL support of the civilized world. And even with military action as and where necessary.
WW III ? How long shall we keep suffering to avoid it ? And letting hundreds and thousands die every day some where or the other ?
There is hardly any region in the world which is not under some kind of armed unrest. ? Be it Sudan or Nigeria or Syria or Egypt and so on. To name a few.
So should the over-flights be stopped ?
I wonder !
gurmeetnagra
Gurmeet Nagra 1
This is a terrible tragedy. This world is full hates. All humane beings are from same root.
My sincere sympathy to all the relatives who lost their loved one.
tessvandijk
Tess Van Dijk 1
Why do the airlines fly over any area that is at war. Why wouldn't they take an alternate route? I just can't immagine what were the controllers thinking when they plane was verified that it was a missile strike that took it down.
pauldruyts
paul druyts 1
so sad for aal that were on board , and for the excelent staaf , and airline r.i.p .
AlcatrazLogan
Alcatraz Logan 1
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28360784

The BBC has a live news feed up, the page automatically updates as news comes in.
tititavaparis
Oscar Torres Funes 1
Impresionante noticia, mal momento para volar sobre zonas en conflicto
nuna
nuna 1
The two major South Korean airlines, Korean Air and Asiana, Qantas Australian and Taiwanese China Airlines indicated that they changed the routes of their devices to prevent Ukraine since the beginning of March, when Russian troops entered the Crimea.

"We we stopped flying in the airspace of Ukraine for security reasons," said Lee Hyo-Min, spokesman for Asiana.

The Korean Air shifted the trajectory of their flights to 250 kilometers south of Ukraine since 03 March "as a result of political problems in the region," he told AFP the spokesman of the company.

The London-Dubai flight passed by Ukraine but the route was changed "several months", according to a spokesman for Qantas. China Airlines also changed their flight plans since April 3.

Singapore Airlines said it had "redirected routes all flights" in the corridors bypassing Ukraine without the date of taking the decision.

The company's Hong Kong, Cathay Pacific, reported not using that airspace "for some time".

The European security organization and Air Navigation (Eurocontrol) that restricted airspace and Kiev banned zone.

Thai Airways, Vietnam Airlines et Chinese companies Air China and China Eastern border the eastern Ukraine since the plane crash of Malaysia Airlines.

s plans flights of aircraft of the Japanese carriers Japan Airlines and All Nippon Airways, Garuda Indonesia and not use the lanes of Ukraine reported.

Contacted by Lusa, TAP - Air Portugal stated that the Portuguese carrier "does not use the Ukrainian airspace".
AlcatrazLogan
Alcatraz Logan 1
https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/489843415002001408/photo/1

A Singapore Airlines flight was within close range to MH17 before it went down. It's likely they only redirected flights after the incident.
bassimbo
Tom Negri 1
No fly zone Where is Gone ?
aliege
Geert Burgstra 1
Very very sad to see,that 154 of my fellow dutch and the rest of pax and crew are shot down by some crazy fool from ukrain who thought it was een Military freighter???????Curse you all who like to have power and money by taking weapons!!!The world is really going MAD!!!!
rarebear14
Dolf Brouwers 1
The black boxes of JAL007 were also sent to Moscow...result ?
cjd01
chris day 1
There is "NO" international law prohibiting passenger aircraft from a war zone.just a general warning.It would be fool hardy for any airline as well as pilots to ignore this "WARNING".the consequences can be catastrophic.
vin01arora
Vin Arora 1
Condolences to the families of the innocent lives lost yesterday. This was a dastardly act of terrorism which has just escalated a local conflict with features of externally supported civil war into a global one. Not sure whether Moscow, Donetsk separatists or Kiev is to blame for this, or whether it was an accident or a deliberate attempt against a civil aircraft, but the people behind this must be brought to justice as soon as possible. Unfortunately so far only Washington was giving any weight to this ongoing conflict, but this incident will certainly make EU pay attention to the war at their doorstep. As a global citizen, I can only hope that this doesn't result in us leaving an uninhabitable, war-torn world for our future generation.
allanu
Allan Ullyett 1
World leaders have condemed this atrocity. However, some 30+ years ago when two Air Rhodesia Viscounts were brought down by missiles there was no condemnation from any world leader. The silence was deafining. My heart goes out to those who lost their lives and to the families who lost their loved ones.
Prada1025
Nina Aliprandi 1
They should not have been flying in that air space even at what the Ukraine said was a safe distance. In April of 2014 all US airlines were told to avoid that region period.
Londo38
Yves Lafleur 1
It's terrible tragedy. Why this flight pass at this place I see otherflight never pass at this place it s a dangerous place.for this company I think another flight lost.
tetew0718
Mathew De oliveira 1
So no ones made any "In solviet russia" jokes? Shoking
MattU470
Matthew Unger 1
In America, you go to war on an airplane. In Russia, war comes to your airplane.

Happy now?
aliaboutaher
alia boutaher 1
sono sconvolta per questa seconda tragedia della Malaysian Airlines un abbraccio a tutti i familiari
artems
Artem Salpagarov 1
PhthaloType
Matt Hernandez 1
So I can't help by notice how the next MH17 is in the air right now... and MH17 is still planned for the next day, too... How have they NOT retired the flight number?!
sgbelverta
sharon bias 1
It appears that Malaysian Air can't change a roll of toilet paper without a commitee meeting.
nasdisco
Chris B 1
Whether this was a missile operated by Russians but under "independent" pro Russian rebel command or 100% under Russian command, the trail of blood still leads to the Kremlin.
artems
Artem Salpagarov -1
It's nice to see you already know who did that. Why investigating, right? With the same level of credibility I can say that it was secret mission of F-22 or some secret stealth drone and US government is 100% to blame.
joelwiley
joel wiley 3
Are you certain it was not an F-35?
vgulch
Volodymyr H 1
guys, dont be fool. Its russian proffesionals who made it. Please check info.
Ukrainian have no needs to shoot planes in their area.
Terrorists have no planes.
So its terrorists, who shoot. And to shoot from ЗРК you have to be a specialist. And those are from russia, ofcause
So please...
OleEskildsen
Ole Eskildsen 1
I believe you are right, Volodymyr.
aliege
Geert Burgstra 1
I forgot to say it were russian separist,sorry!NOT the ukrain pipel!
excpjg2000
excpjg2000 1
为逝者默哀,但是乌克兰方面也应当反省自己的错误,停止或尽力阻止内战,防止再次发生类似的客机击落事件,虽然这不是第一起,但是乌克兰也请最大努力识别客机和其他飞行物,请不要让无辜的人民再次牺牲
joelwiley
joel wiley 0
From Google Translate:
Silence for the deceased, but the Ukrainian side should also reflect on his mistakes, stop, or try to prevent civil war, to prevent the recurrence of similar incidents airliner shot down, although this is not the first onwards, but please utmost to identify the Ukrainian aircraft and other flying objects, please Do not allow innocent people to sacrifice again
End translation

Requiescat in pace
alankurland
Alan Kurland 1
This is probably a case of separatists getting hold of weaponry they should not have had. It is frightening to think of rogue nations with nuclear weapons and what they might do.
setyanin
Сергей Задериенко 1
Igor Girkin (Strelkov) is Russian terrorist who brags that knocked AN-26 aircraft on 17th of July 2014. When he found out that the aircraft Malaysia Airlines he erase information from the his site.
Google cache has a good memory and remembers Girkin`s page where he shows off downed plane falling near the mine "Progress", so that terrorist Igor Girkin will be punished, I think.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fvk.com%2Fwall-57424472_7256
antondewaard
ton de waard 1
In this case dont talk about what the Airline had to do. 193 people from my country, and in total 298 people, including 80 children died. Talk about who gave these fools this weapon. Everybody knows who did it and who gave it to them.
nsmathura
Narain Mathura 1
This is really horrible. A few days wedded couple was going for their honymoon. Very sad.
The international counsel must take action against terrorist inthiscarea
jhmackeyll
JOHN MACKEY 1
I must agree with James. We all need to keep in mind who reads these posts. If you cannot be mature enough to respond, stay off the site.
Wide
Plain Wide 1
Is data of this site correct? MAS17s tracks for previous days (probably outside of confict zone) differ from today's path. Though tracks look same at Flightradar24.
OleEskildsen
Ole Eskildsen 1
I that correct?
As far as I can tell MH17 was flying the same approximate track every day in the days prior to the shooting-down on the 17th July.
The conflict zone is not just one small isolated area, it is a large stretch of the common eastern Ukraine/Russia border.

The information above by Сергей Задериенко (Sergei Zaderienko), if correct, is pretty damning and appears quite conclusively to confirm the assertions that MH17 was shot down by Russian speaking separatists in eastern Ukraine.

Let us hope that an independant international investigation team can soon get unfettered access to the crash area.
mdholmes
mark holmes 1
This is third try to post this info...

1. Someone apparently changed the FA data online for some of flight paths from one day to the next. OR
2. Someone did a really good job of forging a screen print of the Russian version of FA which showed MH17 going far south of the war zone, directly over the sea of Arzov, as reported by many here. Many have commented that for days before the 17th, Mh17 always flew outside the war zone, INCLUDING THE WS JOURNAL.
3. Look at this link and pay attention to the departure and arrival times etc for the 14th of July, and you see FA version of the 14th MH17 flight from a couple of days ago with path Nowhere the border zone:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-flight-path-of-mh17-was-changed-july-17-plane-route-was-over-the-ukraine-warzone/5392182

4. BUT...LOOK AT THE CURRENT FA MODEL....IT SHOWS THE same exact flight, but NOW IT GOES NORTH OF THE Sea of Arzov, and directly over the Ukraine Ruassian border......how did this happen??

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140714/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK

5. Look yourself....I'm seeing a huge discrepancy on the track of MH17 on the 14th right now at 110am Monday 7 21 2014....do you see it?

What is going on FA??? Who is altering data, you or the authors of the story quoted by globalresearch.ca??
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
It has been posted elsewhere in this squawk that the route changed due to weather and that there were 50+ aircraft in the vicinity on the same route. Are you thinking someone altered the data similar to what the Russian News agency was caught doing to a wikipedia article?
inte
inte inte 1
Joel, it seems so.
MH17 flight path was different in the older datasets. You can easily compare with plenty of different screenshots in the net from different sources.
I dont have any, unfortunately. But I checked it out yesterday and today it looks different.
One of the most reliable sources (if you dont give much on forums) is this image from spiegel.de (same as in nytimes) which indicates the crash site lies within the regular flight path:
http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/mensch/bild-981772-726710.html
However, it doesnt, as shown here (http://cdn2.spiegel.de/images/image-726711-galleryV9-wnpv.jpg) same source :-)
So, obviously, something is odd.
Probably not only the Russians are capable of changing informations for their benefit. I would rather belief neither the US nor the Russian and for sure not the Ukraines (neither the government nor the rebells). There were just to many lies in the past. However,I still have some faith the Europeans will be able to bring some light in the dark. At least there are some people from Switzerland with the OSZE.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Welcome to FA inte inte.
When you say path was different in older datasets, do you mean
a) that the datasets for the days prior did not overlap the flight on 7/17
or
b) data set showing MH17 7/17 flight path posted at, say 1400Z, differs from on posted at 2000Z?

If you mean b, then the question is from where did the underlying data come? I presume MH17 was regularly squawking ADS-B, and there could be any number of recipients logging it. That should be independently verifiable from too many sources for any of the players to fudge in the long run. The short term message is important- get your view out there before the collective attention turns to the new crisis.

I think few, if any posters on this site take what their government says is Gospel- the opposite is closer.
rarebear14
Dolf Brouwers 1
...and the US navy that downed an Iranian airliner ?
infodigital
Robert Schaper 3
Iranian Airliner??? ...It was terrible. The U.S. government immediately recognized its responsibility. With the Russians is another story
rarebear14
Dolf Brouwers 2
@Robert , exactly ! but Putin will never take responsibility ....thats the difference
JerrySteinberg
Jerry Steinberg 1
Update - the number of passengers and crew was revised to 298, up from 295. And the FAA has prohibited U.S. airlines from flying over eastern Ukraine.

See http://www.frequentbusinesstraveler.com/2014/07/faa-prohibits-flying-over-eastern-ukraine/
speedbird347
Derek Vaughn 1
The 777-200 has lost 3 airframes to disaster/mishap since going into service. Two of those disasters occurring with the same airline, in the same year, only months apart, and neither loss was due to a related or ordinary set of circumstances. I've never seen anything like this.
davidrbarnes
David Barnes 2
The count is, unfortunately, 5.

British 38, EgyptAir SU-GBP, Asiana 214, Malaysia 370, and this most recent, Malaysia 17.
sgbelverta
sharon bias 1
Can the data from a Black Box be manipulated? If the Russians have the box, can we trust any data they release to the public?
pdixonj
pdixonj 4
I think as a general rule, Russia cannot and should not be trusted...period.
joelwiley
joel wiley 3
And your own government, whichever that one is?
As an an American, I take mine with a grain of salt.
Dwiehe
Dwiehe 2
u should not trust any government
zathras
Jim Shepherd 1
Agreed. Where grain = Jupiter
pdixonj
pdixonj 1
I'll take my chances with America over Russia, thank you. At least I know Obama will slap me in the face and say he was only trying to save my life. Putin will shoot me in the head, then blame me for forcing him to do it.
granny02
Martha Eskridge 1
After all the back to back uprisings, wars, torture,droneings, and the mess our country is in , I wonder?
yr2012
matt jensen 0
Zero won't do anything. Hasn't done anything his entire time in office - except jam a health care initiative down the constituents throats with no way of paying for it.
granny02
Martha Eskridge 1
If all dig deep enough for facts will find it was not Russia that started the sir up in the Ukraine in the first place, but to agistate Putin to retalitate.
yr2012
matt jensen 0
I trust Russia, before the USofA
OleEskildsen
Ole Eskildsen 1
That's a very good question, Sharon.
Sadly the answer is YES!
When whoever is the authority in charge (Ukraine, not Russia) of trying to find solutions to what happened, present their findings AND hand over the full, uncut length of the black box recorings (there are 2), then the data can be reexamined. However, if they try to tamper with the tapes, then that can be determined. A third possibility would be to "lose" the black boxed by dropping them into the enormous sink hole which has just appeared in Siberia and then claim the boxes were never located. That would be hard, there will always be somebody who knows about that and it would be very, very difficult to prevent the knowledge about what was done to the boxes to leak out. We just need Asange on the job and it will get leaked out :-D
KevinBrown
Kevin Brown 0
FIRST PHOTO (via RT.com) showing section of the fuselage the unmistakable Malaysian Airline livery colors can be seen .

This image suggests aircraft did break up at altitude consistent with a shoot-down.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bswi_mLCYAAq_xd.jpg
Moviela
Ric Wernicke 0
Somebody git a rope. This has to be punished quickly and publicized widely.
JerrySteinberg
Jerry Steinberg 0
UPDATE - U.S. intelligence sources said it was a surface-to-air missile that struck Flight 17. U.S. VP Biden told reporters it was not an accident - the plane was "Blown out of the sky."

source: http://www.frequentbusinesstraveler.com/2014/07/u-s-officials-malaysia-airlines-plane-was-hit-by-surface-to-air-missile/
Arlene09
Arlene Cepeda Dejesus 0
Russian. You just mess everything up with any international with USA a damn country that is so poor Is a shame,shame on the Russia for admitting that you just shot down a airline not enemy a simple airline...295 souls lost a tragic lost and they admit to it...rush go straight to hell with your damn country and dumb people who lives there
KevinBrown
Kevin Brown 0
Did Ukraine fabricate evidence to frame Russia? Alleged conversation between rebel leader & Russian commander attracts suspicion

http://www.prisonplanet.com/video-did-ukraine-fabricate-evidence-to-frame-russia-for-mh17-shoot-down.html
Sjoerd2310
Sjoerd Balfoort 0
OleEskildsen
Ole Eskildsen 1
Definitely not! Other major airlines, such as KLM and Lufthansa, were also over-flying the same region in the days prior to the shooting-down of MH17.

It is always easier to say that somebody did something wrong after a disaster, and that the party involved should have known better.
doriengray
Steve Barrett 0
Atrocious!!! when will people wake up to Puttins destabilization, land and money grab in Europe to stop in his eyes "only" the EU grab???People vote to join the EU, Puttin uses military and bribes to force Russia on to people who are sadly mislead by a few who will profit when the deliver large chunks of Ukraine to Russia. Putin can only be described as a modern terrorist using money, arms to subjugate territory through other unscrupulous people.
star2344
David Johnson -2
MH -17 down on the 17th of July on the 18th anniversary of TWA 800. Mmmmmmmm?
joelwiley
joel wiley 3
And a mere 14 days after the anniversary Iran Air 655.....
Clearly a conspiracy, eh?
<end sarcasm font>
panam1971
panam1971 2
History always repeats itself...
ultramac
Andrew McNeil -1
I am surprised by the ignorant unsubstatiated comments found here.. There is no doubt that what I know, read and learned dealing with Russians, that the Russian Military were the only ones to have fired the missle. If you know anything about this type of missile, you would know that it could only have been used by trained and qualified personnel. I firmly believe that Putins military were directly responsible for this dastardly act of cowardice, in causing the death of 293 inocent men women and children.. This time Vlad, you went way to far in your attempts to try and achieve a stupid ideology...
morok81
odinets ivano -1
Америка руками Украины сбили самолет и валят на Россию ... Черные ящики все скажут . обама пидорас
RichardNeumann
Richard Neumann 0
Why on earth would they be flying over a war zone in the first place? ALL civil aircraft should not be flying in any air space where fighting is going on.
Sjoerd2310
Sjoerd Balfoort 0
Proves how little you know about aviation.
Lee1209
JOhn LEe 0
Why didn't Malaysian airlines avoid the war zone like the other airlines were advised to do.
dickfix
Richard Ruscoe 0
What would be the odds comparison, of two major air disasters happening to Malaysia Airlines within four months, and a well placed sniper's bullet landing precisely between Putin's beady eyes in the same time period ??
Just wondering ....
Popsmoke
Jay Cafasso 0
Radar confirmation, radar confirmation, radar confirmation.....
Deno
Dennis Stabler 0
If Flight 93 that crashed in Pa. on 9-11 didn't have any parts scattered, why is this one showing so much?
JenyaNargizyan
Jenya Nargizyan 0
People have you seen that the plane changed it's normal route?????
Lee1209
JOhn LEe 0
I think Martha is a professor at one of our elite universities judging by her poor English and ignorance. I'll bet she has tenure too.
rarebear14
Dolf Brouwers 0
Martha must be one of those who glorify the Boston Bombers...::
mergem
Hans Lam 0
Dit is een terroristische aanslag die alleen gepleegd kon worden door de steun van Rusland, lees Poetin.
Indien hij zich niet met de binnenlandse politiek van de Oekraïne had bemoeit en de rebellen op allerlei manieren hand ondersteunt zoals met manschappen, geld en vooral WAPENTUIG dan had dat mijnsinziens de binnenlandse opstand niet tot zoveel ellende voor de bevolking van de Oekraïne geleid.
Dat Poetin in zijn verklaring zegt dat het de schuld is van de Oekraïense regering is een gotspe !!!
willemills
William Mills 0
Malaysia Air was/is a great airline. After the demise of Pan Am it was always my airline of choice when flying to Singapore and Jakarta....even though it required a change in Kuala Lumpur.
iflyifr
iflyifr 0
Arne, did I get it correctly this time? question for you; did your Mother teach you those ghetto words?

[This poster has been suspended.]

[This poster has been suspended.]

preacher1
preacher1 1
Your language defines your personality and limited vocabulary. That is my opinion and I earned my right to express it.
d0ugparker
Doug Parker 1
Looks like Arne's been suspended.
Bobqat
Bob Harrington 0
300 more victims of Putin's machinations. May his death screams echo around the world...

God's peace to the victims' families and friends.
yr2012
matt jensen 0

[This poster has been suspended.]

AirBalance
Jeff Lewis 4
Arne: Please tone it down. Russians are people, too. And in a real analysis, we will probably find the same per capita rate of corruption as we have in any other country, such as mine, the U.S.
BaronG58
BaronG58 3
Well said Jeff. Arne....clean your mouth up...there is a time and place for the use of your favorite word...this site is not the place.
Wayne47
Michael Townsley -5
Very tragic though it does reinforce the fact the Malaysia Air can not manage the safe operations of their aircraft and should be grounded. The commercial aircraft should not have been flying in contested airspace where military aircraft have been recently downed.
andinesh2
DINESH NARAYANAPPA 1

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

THRUSTT
THRUSTT -2
Did you say you're a pole worker???
KevinBrown
Kevin Brown -9
No question that this was a consequence of the civil war and Obama fomented this civil war just as he has done in the Syria (with the help of his Al Qaeda / ISIS / Muslim Brotherhood "allies").
OleEskildsen
Ole Eskildsen 2
@Kevin Brown
Are you serious?
Nah! You're just kidding, right?
OleEskildsen
Ole Eskildsen 1
Oh, I get it!
You are talking about the U.S. Civil War 1861-1865.
Ha, ha! You funny man :-D
leeham123
lee hamilton -4
Cliff W

That a load of rubbish as the Obama is the best president there has been. He is true throw and throw.
haydenpellegrino
Hayden Pellegrino -3
Maybe this is a clue to what happened to Flight MH370
yr2012
matt jensen 1
We know where MH17 is but they are still looking in the wrong area for MH370.
mdholmes
mark holmes -4
To All Members of FlightAware:

I am going to post an email that I sent today to FA, as well as the receipt that I got from them right afterwarda....Please PLEASE PLEASE JOIN ME TO GET REAL ANSWERS:

//////////BEGIN EMAIL TO FLIGHTAWARE.COM SENT TO CONTAC@FLIGHTAWARE DOT COM///////





Subject: Flight Aware dot com: Please Explain ASAP!

Monday 931am 7 21 2014

Below you will see the post that I made to your website early this morning at
about 224am Central Time.

This post represents evidence, now verified by other observers that Flight Track
Data has been altered in
your computer system regarding at least one and possibly multiple histories for
MAH Flight MH17.

Specifically on the days leading up to the tragic events on 4 17 2014, and
specifically on the 14th July 2014:

1. Your site previously reported that the MH17 flight went well south of the
Russian / Ukraine Border, flying OVER the Azov Sea, as shown and observed by
many commentators, as well as a screen print that I will try to attach along
with
2. The current version of your report for the flight MH17 on 4 17 2014 NOW HAS
CHANGED, and clearly shows the flight flying directly over the 90 degree north
to east "corner" of the Territorial Border, which is directly over the war
zone.

I will attempt to attach a PDF of the two screen prints, one from Tyler Durden's
report (zerohedge dot com) reported by globalresearch dot ca.

I am covering copy of this request to Tyler as well as posting it to several
sites in an effort to get this word out. I will relay the message to several
journalists, as well as GlobalResearch dot ca, and ensure that your members also
see this post, as well as your response.

Questions:

1. Why did this change happen?
2. If your position is that it did NOT change (flight track on MH17 for 7 14
2014) please explain why you believe this information is incorrect.
3. Did you receive outside requests to alter this information and
4. If so, from WHOM?
5. Is this typical of your record keeping, and if not, why not?
6. If someone did change this information, please explain your plan to continue
to maintain the trust you have so clearly earned in the past from all your
membership. Please give us ALL the Details.

Thanks,
Mark Holmes
holmesmd@cox.net
CC: Tyler Durden at Zerohedge dot com, GlobalResearch dot CA, Wayne Madsen at
WayneMadsenreport dot com, John Caylor at insider-magazine dot com



////begin post////// /////// I apologize for the typos//////////

Is something strange going on at Flight Aware?? Two completely different
versions of the track of MH17 on the 14 th of July, for example, seem to be
documented. One is the oft quoted version that is on this page, in summary in
the graph at the top. That track took the plane on flight MH17 on 7 14 2014 over
the sea of Arzov.

There is even a screen print of it in an article from globalresearch.ca, in the
Russian version.

Then there is the current version early am central time 7 21 2014. That one
shows the plane going directly over the war zone on the 14th.

See the paste that I posed elsewhere with the links. Someone check it out for
yourself now, and see if something looks odd, please.

Here's the detail I posted earlier directly on flightaware.com:


1. Someone apparently changed the FA data online for some of flight paths from
one day to the next. OR
2. Someone did a really good job of forging a screen print of the Russian
version of FA which showed MH17 going far south of the war zone, directly over
the sea of Arzov, as reported by many here. Many have commented that for days
before the 17th, MH17 always flew outside the war zone.
3. Look at this link and pay attention to the departure and arrival times etc
for the 14th of July, and you see FA version of the 14th MH17 flight from a
couple of days ago with path Nowhere the border zone:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-flight-path-of-mh17-was-changed-july-17-plane-r
oute-was-over-the-ukraine-warzone/5392182

4. BUT...LOOK AT THE CURRENT FA MODEL....IT SHOWS THE same exact flight, but NOW
IT GOES NORTH OF THE Sea of Arzov, and directly over the Ukraine Ruassian
border......how did this happen??

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140714/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK

5. Look yourself....I'm seeing a huge discrepancy on the track of MH17 on the
14th right now at 110am Monday 7 21 2014....do you see it?

What is going on FA??? Who is altering data, you or the authors of the story
quoted by globalresearch.ca??


/////////end of post//////


This communication may be unconstitutionally collected and stored by elements of
the United States Government or its partners in secret. The parties to this
email do not consent to the collection, storage, or retrieval of this
communication and any derived metadata, as well as printing, copying,
re-transmitting, disseminating, or otherwise using it in a manner prohibited by
the Fourth Amendment and the sovereign rights of an individual person. If you
believe you have received this communication in error, please delete it
immediately.

Open Attachment email to flight aware dot com july 21 2014 1005am central.pdf Open


///////END MESSAGE SENT TO FLIGHT AWARE 7 21 2014//////


NOW THEIR REPLY TO ME:


///////BEGIN REPLY FROM FLIGHTAWARE RECEIVED 7 21 14 AT 1020 CENTRAL TIME....

SOMEONE PLEASE POST THAT THIS IS ACTUALLY THE CORRECT EMAIL RESPONSE ADDRESS FROM FLIGHTAWARE:

FlightAware <support@flightaware.zendesk.com> thanks!////////



Print
Date:
Monday, July 21, 2014 10:20 AM
From:
FlightAware <support@flightaware.zendesk.com>
To:
Holmesmd <holmesmd@cox.net>
Subject: Request received: NOTIFICATION: Flight Aware dot com: Please Explain ASAP!
##- Please type your reply above this line -##

Your request (#28968) has been received and is being reviewed by our support staff.

To add additional comments, reply to this email or click the link below:
https://support.flightaware.com/requests/28968

Holmesmd

Holmesmd

Jul 21 10:20 AM

Subject: Flight Aware dot com: Please Explain ASAP!

Monday 931am 7 21 2014

Below you will see the post that I made to your website early this morning at about 224am Central Time.

This post represents evidence, now verified by other observers that Flight Track Data has been altered in
your computer system regarding at least one and possibly multiple histories for MAH Flight MH17.

Specifically on the days leading up to the tragic events on 4 17 2014, and specifically on the 14th July 2014:

1. Your site previously reported that the MH17 flight went well south of the Russian / Ukraine Border, flying OVER the Azov Sea, as shown and observed by many commentators, as well as a screen print that I will try to attach along with
2. The current version of your report for the flight MH17 on 4 17 2014 NOW HAS CHANGED, and clearly shows the flight flying directly over the 90 degree north to east "corner" of the Territorial Border, which is directly over the war zone.

I will attempt to attach a PDF of the two screen prints, one from Tyler Durden's report (zerohedge dot com) reported by globalresearch dot ca.

I am covering copy of this request to Tyler as well as posting it to several sites in an effort to get this word out. I will relay the message to several journalists, as well as GlobalResearch dot ca, and ensure that your members also see this post, as well as your response.

Questions:

1. Why did this change happen?
2. If your position is that it did NOT change (flight track on MH17 for 7 14 2014) please explain why you believe this information is incorrect.
3. Did you receive outside requests to alter this information and
4. If so, from WHOM?
5. Is this typical of your record keeping, and if not, why not?
6. If someone did change this information, please explain your plan to continue to maintain the trust you have so clearly earned in the past from all your membership. Please give us ALL the Details.

Thanks,
Mark Holmes
holmesmd@cox.net
CC: Tyler Durden at Zerohedge dot com, GlobalResearch dot CA, Wayne Madsen at WayneMadsenreport dot com, John Caylor at insider-magazine dot com

////begin post////// /////// I apologize for the typos//////////

Is something strange going on at Flight Aware?? Two completely different
versions of the track of MH17 on the 14 th of July, for example, seem to be
documented. One is the oft quoted version that is on this page, in summary in
the graph at the top. That track took the plane on flight MH17 on 7 14 2014 over
the sea of Arzov.

There is even a screen print of it in an article from globalresearch.ca, in the
Russian version.

Then there is the current version early am central time 7 21 2014. That one
shows the plane going directly over the war zone on the 14th.

See the paste that I posed elsewhere with the links. Someone check it out for
yourself now, and see if something looks odd, please.

Here's the detail I posted earlier directly on flightaware.com:


1. Someone apparently changed the FA data online for some of flight paths from
one day to the next. OR
2. Someone did a really good job of forging a screen print of the Russian
version of FA which showed MH17 going far south of the war zone, directly over
the sea of Arzov, as reported by many here. Many have commented that for days
before the 17th, MH17 always flew outside the war zone.
3. Look at this link and pay attention to the departure and arrival times etc
for the 14th of July, and you see FA version of the 14th MH17 flight from a
couple of days ago with path Nowhere the border zone:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-flight-path-of-mh17-was-changed-july-17-plane-r
oute-was-over-the-ukraine-warzone/5392182

4. BUT...LOOK AT THE CURRENT FA MODEL....IT SHOWS THE same exact flight, but NOW
IT GOES NORTH OF THE Sea of Arzov, and directly over the Ukraine Ruassian
border......how did this happen??

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140714/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK

5. Look yourself....I'm seeing a huge discrepancy on the track of MH17 on the
14th right now at 110am Monday 7 21 2014....do you see it?

What is going on FA??? Who is altering data, you or the authors of the story
quoted by globalresearch.ca??


/////////end of post//////


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Attachment(s)
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Thanks, all....please help me to follow up with FA.

MH.
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
How about opening a separate squawk on the subject, as it is moving off the topic of this squawk?
Lee1209
JOhn LEe -1
Why didn't the pilots follow protocol and avoid war zones
2nd x for bad Malaysia air
Lorna73
Lorna Sallis 2
It is not the pilot's choice. It is the airline's choice. The route is selected by the airline company.
AirBalance
Jeff Lewis 2
IN any event, how about if the aviation authorities put pressure on Malaysia to issue their filed flightplan? And with it, issue copies of all restrictions, prohibitions, etc. that were in effect (and relevant to Ukraine) at the time the flightplan was filed?
Lee1209
JOhn LEe 2
In the US and Canada the pilots are involved and in the air the pilots have authority to change at anytime
sgbelverta
sharon bias 1
Which is why I always try and fly an American carrier going overseas. They may have dirty planes, and worse food, but they'll probably get you there in one piece.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Pilot does have the right to reject a plan, but in this case it was an open, well used jetway, and the diversion North was due to wx
AirtranPAX
jose Barrera 1
No it is not... The pilots can, and have, refused to fly a route assigned by company traffic..
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
I think I understand your point that the pilot in command can refuse to fly for what he/she feels is a compelling reason. That the route was selected by several companies (there were at least 3 flights in proximity to MH 17) that determined the risk was acceptable. Perhaps the risk was discounted until is was catastrophically demonstrated to be unacceptably high.
luisfelipefrankgarciafabre
luis felipe frank garcia fabre -1
"..DESDE ECUADOR!..VIA CORRESPONSALIA GRUPO"CONVERGENCIA!...
RESULTA INVEROSIMIL...FATIDICO..TRISTE Y MUY LAMENTABLE..EL ATENTADO TERRORISTA QUE FUERA OCACIONADO PRESUNTIVAMENTE POR"....SEPARATISTAS PRO-RUSOS DE LA EX-REP, DE UCKRANYE...,HE VISTO VIA SATELITE LAS TOMAS DEL INCIDENTE..CREANLO "SE ME SALEN LAS LAGRIMAS!!!!...DIOS MIO.!!!...¿COMO PUDO PASAR ESTO?..ATENTAR CONTRA PASAJEROS CIVILES!..AVION COMERCIAL CIVIL..NIÑOS...JOVENES ADULTOS Y GENTE MUY INOCENTE!..¿ A CAMBIO DE QUEE?...ACASO LLAMAR LA ATENCION DEL MUNDO?...¿O AVALIZAR EL "ROBO, ATRACO Y APROPIAMIENTO DE LAS RIQUEZAS DE"..UKCRANYE?..DE PARTE DE LOS RUSOS!..MR PUTIN GUARDA "SEPULCRAR Y COMPLICE SILENCIO ANTE ESTO"!....QUE BUENO!... MR BARACK OBAMA HOY ASEGURO QUE ESTO NO SEQUEDARA ASI!...OJALA DIOS Y LOS EEUU Y SUS ALIADOS.."TERMINEN MILITARMENTE ESTO".....EL MUNDO ES DE PAZ!..NO DE VIOLENCIAS!..GRACIAS A UDS POR ESA INFORMACION VERAZ DE CONTROL DE VUELOS DE FLIGHTAWARE...AL MENOS TENEMOS MUCHA CONFIANZA EN UDS ATRAVEZ DE SU MONITOREO AVIATORIO!..CUAN IMPORTANTE ES ESTO!..YO VIVO EN ECUADOR!..CIUDAD GUAYAQUIL!..SIGO DIARIAMENTE SU MONITOREO.,EN ESPECIAL NOCHES Y MADRUGADA..DESDE LAS 20HRS-A 0.3AM MADRUGADA.---.."A PESAR DE NO TENER UN RECEPTOR APROPIADO PARA AYUDARLOS SOLIDARIAMENTE EN SU GESTION..UN ABRAZO AMIGOS DE "FLIGHTAWAWRE"...DESDE EL ECUADOR..SAM JUNTO AUDS!.....SALUDOS!......
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
Por favor deja de gritar, o fijar su bloqueo de mayúsculas.

[This comment was deleted.]

[This poster has been suspended.]

Sjoerd2310
Sjoerd Balfoort -1
It IS regulated internationally, not decided by individual companies
Lee1209
JOhn LEe -1
Malaysia needs to screen their pilots better
timgrant2002
Tim Grant -1
If in deed this aircraft was shot down,then perhaps Malaysian's other aircraft was also shot down.
Changyuraptor
Changyuraptor -1
A number of previous flights flown by MAS over Ukraine all flew further south but this flight for some reason flew further north. If it was to save a little fuel then that could be deemed negligent to say the very least - even if it is proven that Russian Separatist rebels were responsible and it is not likely to be any one else. Ukraine aviation authorities (and therefore Ukraine military) would have known it was a Civilian aircraft in their airspace based on the information pinged from the aircraft as it flew over and was spotted on their respective radars. However, the militant rebels in that region would not have known of the identity of the aircraft - not that it is an excuse to just shoot at it and find out afterwards what it was carrying. The whole tragedy could have been avoided if only MH17 had flown over say Odessa or near to it than the flight path the pilots actually logged in to the autopilot. So many lives unnecessarily lost forever! Meanwhile the fighting will surely continue on the ground without much thought nor any remorse!
preacher1
preacher1 1
They came North due to wx down South on normal path. This was an open jetway and they took it. Routine, nothing sinister
OleEskildsen
Ole Eskildsen 0
Check your facts before commenting!

Use FlightAware to check the tracks of other airlines flying the same route from Ansterdam to Kuala Lumpur.
Try entering in KLM809 and check their tracks BEFORE this event, say 15th of July.
See: Same track over eastern Ukraine!
Changyuraptor
Changyuraptor 2
1. KAH809 July15/16 flew further south directly over the island Azov-Syva'kyi National Park.
2. MH17 July15/16 flew just south of Mariupol, still much further north of the KAH809 flight above.
3. The lost MH17 flight of July17/18 was shot down between Donetsk and Luhansk well north of both of these other flight paths.
4. KAH809 July17/18 incidentally flew over Latvia and Russia and totally avoided Ukraine.
Changyuraptor
Changyuraptor 1
The fact of the matter is a number of aircraft had been shot down in the region in the past month. It was also reported that other MAH flights on that route had flown further south than this flight did. That is what I based my comment on. So don't tell me what to do before commenting! Jerk!
Changyuraptor
Changyuraptor 0
Excuse me! I did check! You moron!
AAfan
Ryan Vince 3
You sir need to chill out, 298 people lost their lives today and you are resorting to calling someone a moron over your original post that was clearly not all facts.

Anyways, god bless everyone on that plane today, may their souls fly high in the blue yonder.
Changyuraptor
Changyuraptor 0
"So many lives unnecessarily lost forever!" did you not read that part of my comment? I know how many people lost their lives "unnecessarily". Ole Eskildsen had no right to tell me to go check my facts when my comment was accurate to begin with. And if you don't think my comment inaccurate then read the facts I submitted above on the previous flights. You also don't know your facts!
AAfan
Ryan Vince 1
Uh what? What facts do I not know, please just stop trolling.
Changyuraptor
Changyuraptor 1
My original comment was accurate and Ole Eskildsen remarks were inaccurate! I am not trolling I am still responding to his rude remark telling me to check my facts before commenting. I have a right to comment as much as anyone else on this site. I am not here to inflame and nor should anyone inflame me for commenting!

1. KAH809 July15/16 flew further south directly over the island Azov-Syva'kyi National Park.
2. MH17 July15/16 flew just south of Mariupol, still much further north of the KAH809 flight above.
3. The lost MH17 flight of July17/18 was shot down between Donetsk and Luhansk well north of both of these other flight paths.
4. KAH809 July17/18 incidentally flew over Latvia and Russia and totally avoided Ukraine.
AAfan
Ryan Vince 1
Ok, but calling someone a moron or jerk is not a good way to convey a point. All that using provocative words like that does is escalate the situation...
Changyuraptor
Changyuraptor 1
Point taken into consideration! Thank you!
OleEskildsen
Ole Eskildsen 1
@Changyuraptor, Here is another point for you to take into consideration:

Slavam wrote:
"Poroshenko killer burn in hell"

Do you think that is appropriate language?

Who was Slavam speaking about?
Let's ask Wikipedia:

"Petro Oleksiyovych Poroshenko; born 26 September 1965) is the fifth and CURRENT President of Ukraine"

I can't imagine that Slavam meant the current president of Ukraine who has only just been elected.
It is possible that Slavam really meant the past president, Viktor Yanukovych, who is Russian oriented and lived in abject luxury in a mansion he had had built using tax payers money, while the ordinary Ukranian lives in very modest circumstances while they are working hard at improving their standard of living.

Maybe Slavam meant the Russian president, Putin, who clearly has a desire to take over eastern Ukraine, where there are many Russian speaking ethnic Russians, as he did on the Crimean peninsula. That is what I therefore suggested when I asked:
"Or is just a mistake, you meant Putin?"

If you and others like Slavam wish to contribute to this or any other forum, then please, PLEASE, P*L*E*A*S*E check your facts, names, dates, etc. You have got the tools to do so, they are called the Internet, Wikipedia, Encyclopaedia Britannica, Google Search, etc, etc.
Changyuraptor
Changyuraptor 1
Yanukovych, that is the one I thought Slavam was first referring to! I must admit I had forgotten that name as I am not use to these surnames from the East and hence my comment was suppose to be in reference to Yanukovych, the previous President and not Poroshenko, the current president.

I checked (on here as I don't know him personally) but Slavam has not responded back to your castigation of him so maybe Slavam also got the name wrong and perhaps meant to refer to Yanukovych who was the catalyst to this whole conflict and separatist uprising.

Nevertheless, it is hard to think Slavam would have meant Putin as that name is not likely to be confused since it is already so well known considering how long Putin has been in power. Even if one thought Putin was complicit in this event he would not have directly ordered the missile to be launched. Not that I am in support of his agenda either, which I am not.

Personally, I don't understand why Putin is so anti-European instead of trying to bring Russia into partnership with the EU, through integration and play a proactive role in strengthening the whole continental region economically and so forth.

However, I posted your remark on my thread back to Ryan Vince because Ryan Vince castigated me for the nouns I used in reference to you, which you then threw back at me for my mistyping of KLM as KAH (as I already explained above in a reply back to your post on that matter - that was a typo).

Do you think it is appropriate to use the language "Are you totally nuts? Or are you just ordinarily stupid?" that you did towards Slavam? Whether it was meant to be Yanukovych, Putin or if in fact Slavam was fully intending on pinning the blame on Poroshenko, the current president - just as Putin also did in his media announcements earlier yesterday. In which case, Slavam has a pro-Russian viewpoint from the outset and in that case would not be too interested in the facts of the matter and who was behind the criminal shooting down of MH17.

On various forums, perhaps here also, I have noticed pro-Russian propagandists some even going so far as claiming it was a US drone and not the Russian separatists. Highly farcical and improbable scenario to even make such an absurd assertion.

One last point I find it hard to understand why those who launched the missile attack could not have thought it was likely to be a Civilian aircraft considering the direction it was flying, the height, speed and close proximity to the Russian border. No Ukrainian military aircraft would be flying towards the Russian border and not expect to be shot down if it crossed over into Russian airspace and their radars and pings detected it was non-civilian. I don't know the sophistication of the radar system on board the Buk missile units, and if it can identify and differentiate the signature between a civilian or military aircraft. They who shot at it didn't careless what was in the air, who was flying it, nor what it might be carrying based on the remarks in the intercepted communications shortly afterwards - assuming that it was real and not fake.

Maybe Slavam should have responded to your remarks to inform you whether or not he made a mistake and if so what person he actually meant but he has not thus far.
Changyuraptor
Changyuraptor 1
You probably did not notice the following comment made by Ole Eskildsen either to a comment made by @Slavam. See below! Ole called Slavam "nuts or ordinarily stupid" all because Slavam posted the name of the previous Ukrainian President (who fled to Russia with the billions he stole from the citizens of Ukraine). Even if Slavam meant to write Putin or not, should Ole Eskildsen have called him "nuts or ordinarily stupid"? On the other hand Slavam is not entirely wrong in putting (part of) the blame on Poroshenko who caused the crisis in the first place when he ordered his military police or mercenaries paid for by him to shoot innocent civilians in the Freedom square in Kiev. So I doubt he would have been too offended by the nouns that I used to put him back in his shoes! Perhaps it was karma coming back to him! Nevertheless its the tragic event and the facts of the matter that should remain the focus in discussions here and what my original comment was all about as well that lives were lost "unnecessarily". May they all, especially the 80 children, rest in peace! May this event bring about efforts to find a peaceful resolution in Ukraine instead of splitting it by ethnicity which may fulfill the agenda of Putin's grand vision of a a Greater Russia. He is still thinking and dreaming like a former Stalinist!

Slavam about 3 hours ago -3 DownvoteUpvote
Poroshenko killer burn in hell

OleEskildsen
Ole Eskildsen about 2 hours ago

Are you totally nuts?
Or are you just ordinarily stupid?
Or is just a mistake, you meant Putin?
OleEskildsen
Ole Eskildsen 1
Humble apologies Changyuraptor, I have only been a pilot since 1960 so I really would not know much about flying, after all I have only held commercial licences including jets in 5 countries on 4 continents, so what do I understand.

So, you are saying that flight KAH809 didn't fly anywhere near the same track as MH17 which was shot down over eastern Ukraine?

I have a slight problem here! Who is KAH? Kenmore Air Harbor? I checked but I cannot see that they have a flight number 809, but you would be right if they did have a flight no. 809.

If, however, you mean the Dutch airline, KLM, whose homebase is Schiphol, Amsterdam, and who flies a route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, flight no. KLM809, then the picture becomes clear.

KLM809 WERE overflying the same region as Malaysian Airlines, eastern Ukraine where the Russian speaking separatists are camping out, up until MH17 was shot down. Then for some unannounced reason they decided to fly much further north and avoid Ukraine altogether.

And so did Lufthansa on their route Frankfurt to Kuala Lumpur.

Hmmm. I wonder who is the moronic jerk or should that be jerky moron, now?
Changyuraptor
Changyuraptor 1
Once again you are acting belligerently and I dislike your arrogant tone when someone posts a comment here and makes a typo or other mistake. I will put it down to your personality or cultural upbringing and not because you are a pilot since 1960. I know a number of pilots and none of them react in the manner you seem to immediately and telling people to check their facts before posting.

I don't give a damn about your pilot experience or how long you have flown. It is irrelevant to the discussion here or my previous postings, nor the postings of any others on this forum. Though you seem to think you flying hours is relevant.

Freudian slip! I don't understand how or why I wrote KAH when I had to type in KLM to get the flight paths to come up and I know I entered KLM otherwise I would not have discovered that 809, prior to this event, actually flew over the island Azov-Syva'kyi National Park and after the event 809 flew over Latvia and Russia and totally avoided Ukraine.

So yes I am saying once again that KLM809 did not fly anywhere near to the flight path that MH17 flew when it was shot down. So if I am a moronic jerk in your opinion just for my typos then that's your level of maturity and I really don't care as I still think you are just an arrogant person who patronizes people here the moment anyone makes the slightest mistake. Who do you think you are? Let people make mistakes and correct themselves or point it out politely and not in the manner that you did with Slavam when you remarked "Are you totally nuts? Or are you just ordinarily stupid?".

Incidentally, I am far more qualified than you - not as a pilot which I once actually wanted to be but my parents lacked the money to back me - in other areas one of which is related to aviation and other high level areas of science but I am not so full of myself to list the 5 degrees (other than 2 of which are at Master's) and use it as the grounds for my argument against others people's comments herein. Before you even consider writing back how could I afford to obtain 5 degrees and not afford to get a pilot license that is because university was free when I went through (unlike now) and at one stage I was studying for three degrees concurrently. But this is irrelevant to postings here earlier so don't be so quick to judge others nor telling people here the following: "after all I have only held commercial licences including jets in 5 countries on 4 continents, so what do I understand".
dickfix
Richard Ruscoe -1
What would be the odds comparison, of two major air disasters happening to Maylaisa Airlines within four months, and a well placed sniper's bullet landing precisely between Putin's beady eyes in the same time period ??
Just wondering ....
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Odds would be zero. The two MH events occurred in the past, Putin having a Pb infarct did not. No chance a future event occurring in the past.

[This poster has been suspended.]

morok81
odinets ivano 0
открой глаза мальчик !!!) это война . читай больше различных источников информации , или едь в Дрнецк ,посмотри как увивают украинские военные свой народ.... сотни трупов мирного населения каждый день... и всем хуй класть на их беду ,Европа молчит под контролем америки... Россия Великая Страна , не играйте с ней в войну,мало не покажется...

open your eyes boy !!!) this war . read more different sources of information , or go to Donetsk ,look how ubivaut Ukrainian military own people.... hundreds of corpses of civilians every day... and all the cock to put in their trouble ,Europe is silent under the control of America... Russia is a Great Country , don't play with it in the war,will not find...

[This poster has been suspended.]

rarebear14
Dolf Brouwers 0
@arne, you cannot end a war with starting a new one.....
Slavam
Slavam -7
Poroshenko killer burn in hell
OleEskildsen
Ole Eskildsen -1
Are you totally nuts?
Or are you just ordinarily stupid?
Or is just a mistake, you meant Putin?

Only the Russian backed insurgents in Eastern Ukraine would be stupid enough to do such a thing, UNLESS Russian president Putin ordered the shoot down, but I doubt that even he would order such a thing. However, it is a we all know Russia who is supplying and supporting the insurgents. The insurgents are Russian speaking, so how do we know that some of the insurgents, claiming to be Russian-speaking Ukrainians, are not in fact Russians bolstering the numbers of the Russian-speaking Ukrainians?

Who only stands to win if Ukraine ends up losing a large part of Eastern Ukraine?
You guessed it: RUSSIA
Putin has already demonstrated his intent by sending Russian troops into Ukrainian Crimea peninsula and anexing it as a part of Greater (greater?) Russia.

But wait! What is NATO doing?
I bet that NATO right now is on read alert!
TTroll
TTroll 1
Please don't be so fanatic.
It's quite easy to blame Russia for all (yes, even for Yugoslavia, Libya, Syria, Iraq, whatever..), but world is not only black and white.
Try to read more from both sides and make you own picture, not the one from press - they lie in any country.
OleEskildsen
Ole Eskildsen 0